381 Backyard Chickens vs. Bird Flu. Composting tips.

Show Transcript

381 TRANSCRIPT Backyard Chickens vs. Bird Flu

Farmer Fred:

[0:06] Hi, it's Master Gardener Fred Hoffman, Farmer Fred, and today we have tips for protecting your backyard chicken flock from the ravages of the current strain of avian influenza, the deadly bird flu.

And we answer a listener's question about using compost in potted plants. It's episode number 381, Backyard Chickens vs. Bird Flu. We're podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutalon jungle in suburban purgatory. It's the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred Podcast, brought to you today by Dave Wilson Nursery. Let's go.

BACKYARD CHICKENS vs. BIRD FLU

Farmer Fred:

[0:44] Now, I bet where you live, just like where I live, the demand for eggs is skyrocketing, even though the price has gone up. So is the demand, though, for chickens. That's because the price of eggs has doubled in the past few weeks since the bird flu has wiped out millions, something like 150 million hen-laying chickens across the country. From chickensforeggs.com, our resident chicken expert, Cherie Sintes-Glover, is with us. And she is a poultry health inspector. She is an urban chicken consultant. By the way, Cherie, back in 2024, we had a similar conversation when the bird flu was just breaking out or starting to spread. And we were complaining about the price of eggs back then, that it was soaring up to $6 a dozen. Wasn't it just $2 the week before? And now, in 2025, all of a sudden we're looking at,  $9 a dozen or more, depending on the supply that they have?

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[1:43] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's been so funny to watch social media. And there are some crazy memes that have been coming out. You're rolling in it if you have chickens. Because those eggs are worth so much. And it's funny because I'll see people, they'll do regular posts on Facebook and social media saying, “I was just in Costco and they have four pallets of eggs. So quickly go over there and get them!” It's like toilet paper was during COVID. But the price, I've seen it all over the place. I was watching a YouTube, actually on gardening, but a YouTube thing. And it was funny because her chickens hadn't started laying yet. And so she's like, “come on, chickens,  we got to get going here!” But what a lot of people don't realize is that it's normal for your laying hens to take a break when the daylight hours decrease.

 And a lot of people think that chickens lay, because of how hot or cold it is. While the temperature changes will affect, some production, like when we're in the heat of the summer here in the northern Central Valley, San Joaquin Valley area, Sacramento valleys, it gets so hot that, yeah, your chickens might take a break for a few days from laying eggs. But people forget that it's actually associated with the number of daylight hours. So you add that on top of the shortage, right? You have to consider too that,  how long it takes to hatch a chick, right? And then raise it up to laying hen age, which is typically six to eight months, right?

 And boy, it was like the perfect storm for egg shortages.

Farmer Fred:

[3:21] The price of eggs have gone up because of the bird flu. So let's talk a little bit about this bird flu that's going around. It's affected something like 159 million poultry as of today. And I'm sure those numbers are just going to go up. This is information from the Center for Disease Control. And I'm mentioning this because although it's great information they have at the CDC, I don't know how long this information is going to stay online, frankly. But you may want to check that out because they have a lot of good tips on preparing your chicken and its home for bird flu. You want to protect it. Because one of the areas of infection are wild birds that fly by.

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[4:06] We're under the main flyway for migrating waterfowl. So the birds, they're coming over us every day. And that's what happens is they, unfortunately, they bring it in. And it doesn't impact the waterfowl as much, but it can spread, right? So that's where we have to be really, really diligent when it comes to biosecurity. And when you were talking earlier about a cover for the coop, that's why you don't want your chicken coop or chicken run to be able to be visited by waterfowl.

 A few years back, we had a back pasture that we used just for ducks. And at the time, we had about 30 ducks. And it was so funny because I went out there and I saw these this pair of ducks and I'm like, huh, I'm like, where did they come from? Because  they were Muscovies. and muscovy ducks are ones that kind of have like a wrinkly section of skin kind of above their beak. They're very prominent and I didn't have muscovies.  i kind of thought to myself i wonder if somebody dumped them out here? But then i started rationally logically thinking it through, and i'm like nobody would have driven down here without us knowing and then what are they going to do here? Are you going to dump this duck because you don't want it anymore? These birds were perfectly happy in this pasture. I ran back in, got my phone, came back out and was trying to take a picture. And they flew off. And then I thought, oh my goodness, they were just passing through! They saw the other ducks, they saw  the water we had available, they saw the feed, and for them, it was a truck stop for them.

So that's how easy it (the transmission of the virus) can be.  That's how easy something can happen. But it's really a challenge to not be so paranoid that you're taking all these precautions that are impacting your life. But,  you want to take logical, reasonable precautions. And so for me,  as a backyard chicken owner, it means making sure that my chickens are in an enclosed space that, wildfowl, if they stop in, they're not going to have direct access to the chickens. Do I use a foot bath for my show poultry? Yes, my show poultry are in a barn that's been converted on the inside to chicken coops. Before I go in and out of there, I'm using the foot bath. I monitor my visitors. If they have chickens, then I typically won't give them a tour of the chicken coops. And that's just taking an extra precaution because you never know. And these things are carried in by our shoes, by our clothing, as well as the waterfowl themselves. Like for instance, if I go to Oak Grove Park, which has water. They have geese out there. Beautiful, beautiful open park area that you can go and spend time in. But I know that if I walk out there, there's a good chance I'm going to track something back. What shoes am I wearing? And am I tracking anything back into my own backyard chickens?

 So a really good practice is to have one pair of boots or one pair of shoes that you only use in your chicken yard.  And that's the only place you wear them. And that really helps contain it. You're not bringing in other things. Can we evade all the risks out there? Oh, it's really, really hard. But at least if you understand the biosecurity practices,  how things are transmitted, how things are spread. 

At least then you can make logical, reasonable changes to what you do to help prevent that spread. And for right now, I think the way it's impacting me the closure of most of our poultry shows. Our ABA and APA-sanctioned shows are now shut down in California because they're concerned about the spread of the avian flu. So we don't get to show our poultry and then we don't get to visit with our fellow poultry practitioners.

Farmer Fred:

[8:10] Well, that would  include 4H groups.Yeah.

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[8:12] Right. All the 4-Hers, the FFA, the Grange kids, all of those kids, can't participate either. And that's a huge part. Those youth programs are a huge part of those poultry shows. What's going on now reminds me a lot of when we had  Newcastle or exotic Newcastle disease back in like the early 2000s, because it was, oh my gosh, that just shut everything down. , things like our fairs, , I certified for  CBFA as a poultry health inspector. And so what that means is fairs and expos will hire me to come in and do just general health checks for the birds. And so there's a good chance since we're not probably, going to meet this year. I would doubt that all of this is going to get solved by state fair times. last year I did state fair. This year there probably will not be poultry at the state fair.

Farmer Fred:

[9:02] Yeah. Wow.

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[9:03] So that's sad.

Farmer Fred:

[9:06] And then there's stories every day in the press about how the bird flu is spreading, that cats are getting it, people are getting it. But facts are slim. And I think facts are going to be slimmer to find. All the CDC is saying at this time is it's using its flu surveillance systems to monitor for H5 bird flu activity in people, whatever that means.

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[9:29] It's funny because what i've seen at least in the poultry world is that people are either overreacting or underreacting so they either think oh this isn't going to happen to me and they're still kind of doing business as usual, not really taking any precautions and then you have the others that are like extreme like my chicken coop is fort knox i'm not gonna visit any of my friends or  that have birds or chickens i'm not gonna go. We were near the house, , all of these different things where there could be waterfowl, like you can take it one extreme to the other. And that's why it's so important to understand how it spreads and then understand, OK, what do I need to do in my own yard? I was up in the Oroville Chico area recently of California and I got to kind of see someone's set up for a local event. They were a church associated and I had like a local food bank type thing and they had a flock of chickens. And so one of the one of the things that I recommended was, , making sure that it's covered because they do have a pond on the property and those water ponds are what attract those the waterfowl. And that's really what's going to bring it in more so than possibly, , an individual or people. Again, you don't know.

Farmer Fred:

[10:46] , to get to Chico and Oroville, you had to go through Yuba City. And we've talked about this before. Yuba City allows chickens to roam free throughout Yuba City. It's a city ordinance. And I would think that with all this bird flu going around that they somehow would manage to control the populations. Did you go through Yuba City?

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[11:08] I did. Yeah,  I totally drove through Yuba City on highway 99 and I saw all the chickens on the side of the road over by the Carl's Jr. They were all out there pecking around, doing their thing. And  I almost stopped and took a picture of them because I thought, oh, this will be fun to share. But they're all up and down the corridor. They live in the trees and the bushes and stuff all along the highway. So, yeah, it's one of, and that's, I think, maybe if I was a backyard chicken flock owner in Yuba City, I think that's what I'd be concerned with because  they're exposed to so much. And, , how do I take, , I just don't want those. If I lived close to that area, I would be I just wouldn't want those chickens to come over into my neighborhood.

Farmer Fred:

[11:55] Well, you don't even want to walk where they walk either.

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[11:59] Right. Right. Right. a lot of my poultry exhibitor friends, they that's their protocol. At least when these kinds of things happen, because this isn't the first time this has come up and this has happened where we've had some kind of avian type flu or disease or virus that we have to be cautious about. So some you can still come over, but they're just not going to take you out to the chicken coops. When  there are some other things you can do like the quarantine. If you buy new chickens, if you actually are able to get your hands on some new chickens these days, definitely, absolutely quarantine them for no less than three weeks.

Farmer Fred:

[12:41] What do you mean by quarantine?

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[12:44] It means they are in a spot where you really do have a separate coop area or some kind of crate or someplace where you can keep the chickens for up to three weeks without them having contact either through you or through the chickens directly with your other chickens.

Farmer Fred:

[13:04] If you have other chickens, okay.

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[13:05] If you have other chickens and you're going to want to quarantine them just to make sure nothing pops up. Every chicken flock has its own flora, I'm just going to use that word, flora. And germs and microbes and everything in between. It's kind of like the kindergarten class, right? Where every family has their own germs. They've maybe had different colds. And when everybody gets together, right? And when they co-mingle the kids in the classroom, they're spreading those germs, right?  it's the same kind of thing, same concept where you're wanting to minimize the exposure to your current flock, knowing that their germs could be different from the very basic level, different from the flock that you just brought in, or the birds that you just brought in. It means taking extra time, extra precautions, because you have to think about, okay, what's at risk, right? And someone might go, gosh they're just my backyard chickens. But what happens if they are sick? It might not be the avian flu, but something else. And now your flock that you've had for two years, they're laying great eggs and now they're all sick and they're dying. Are you willing to put that flock at risk? And so that's where you've got to kind of weigh out your line of, what do you want to do and what are you willing to do and what are you not willing to do?

Farmer Fred:

[14:35] There is some good information still on the CDC website about the bird flu and the current situation and what you can do to protect yourself, too, from spreading it or getting it just in case. And that's cdc.gov slash bird flu if you want to check that out. We'll have a link to that in the show notes. I just hope it's still there, folks, when this airs.

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[15:00] If not, they will be able to find the information one way or another. And I think the biggest thing you can do as a poultry owner is understand and learn how to recognize a sick chicken and if your chicken's not feeling good. But there's a caveat to that, and that is that you have to understand that chickens are very, very, very good at hiding when they're ill or they're not feeling well, they're so good at it. And that's because the rest of the flock is going to know instantly if something's wrong. And then they'll typically not want that chicken as part of their flock, because they don't, they don't want to get sick. They don't, , it's part of that protective mechanism with the flock mentality. As a chicken owner, what you're looking for is there a bird standing off by themselves, right? Is there a chicken in your flock that's been pushed out because they're not feeling good? And that's usually one of the first things because if you notice, a flock of chickens will typically move together, right? They may kind of do their own thing here and there, but they're still kind of moving as a group. So if you have one chicken that's kind of behind, and especially if they're facing away from the flock, that could mean that there's something going on with that chicken. You also watch, as funny as it sounds, you watch their body language. So you watch that chicken are they kind of hunched over. are they kind of lower to the ground than normal they're not their usual fluffy  exuberant energetic selves and it's kind of like when we get sick right if we have a cold or if we're sick  how do we feel how do we act? if you have a bad cold or flu what are you going to do? you're going to try to wrap yourself up with a blanket you're going to be kind of hunched down you're going to want to get cozy. that's what a chicken does. it's kind of funny but you're watching for that you're watching for are they more fluffed up than normal?  Is their head kind of lowered versus more upright? And are they interacting with the other chickens or are they trying to stay off for themselves? Now, the thing to know is, like I mentioned, that chickens are really, really, really good at hiding those symptoms. So by the time you notice that a chicken's doing these things, there's a good chance they've been sick for a while. But if you notice that, first thing you're going to want to do is pick up that chicken. What's their weight like? Are they underweight? Are they overweight? Then I'm looking at the vents. I'm looking to see, is there any extra discharge? Is there poop stuck to their feathers?  what is that? What's going on there? And then I'm looking at their head. I'm looking at their eyes. I'm looking at their nostrils. Is there anything coming out? Because chickens should have dry nostrils. They shouldn't have anything dried around them or wet. and then i'm listening, because you shouldn't be able to hear your chicken breathe. Your chicken's breathing should be silent. and if you can hear any gasping or gurgling or any noise associated with their inhaling and exhaling  it's typically the sign of a respiratory illness. so if you're watching for this and then this kind of fits people who really love their chickens, they love this, just sit in the backyard with their cup of coffee and watching their chickens do their thing.

 You'll begin to notice when something's not behaving, when one of the chickens are not behaving the way they should, or they're just not acting normal. That's  the first indicator, that you may notice as a chicken owner that something's wrong. So then you take that hen or that rooster or whoever it is, that chicken, no matter what their age, you're going to quarantine them. So have a spot in your garage or someplace separate from that chicken coop. A dog crate works really great, where you can keep them warm, you can offer them food and water, and you can monitor whether or not they're eating or drinking as well as what their output is. So what does their poop look like? And are they lethargic? Are they energetic? all those things kind of weigh in. But if people learn how to recognize those signs of if their chicken is feeling okay or not, or maybe they're ill, that will help them at least, it'll buy them some time to maybe go see an avian vet or, maybe do some research on what's going on. And then their second job as a poultry owner is to watch the rest of the flock. Because if they have something contagious, this could maybe, this might not be just the first one. And you want to know right away if any of the other chickens are having problems.

Farmer Fred:

[19:25] I would think during this whole process, if you think you see a sick bird on your property, one of your chickens, is perhaps you don personal protective equipment. 

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[19:38] Yes. Well, and that's the thing. you should already have some biosecurity practices in place, right? Like the shoes, the foot bath, that kind of thing. Because you never know when something like this is going to come up. And so, already have those things in place. You're going to, but you want to make sure that you have like a spot that you can have your chicken be in quarantine. Because the worst thing in the world is you go out there and like, what is wrong with that chicken? And then you realize, oh shoot, there's something going on with that chicken. I need to now isolate this chicken from the rest of the flock. And now you're trying to, okay, where do I put the chicken? , you're holding the chicken. You're trying to dig out the bag crate and your hands are full. As a chicken owner, it behooves us to have these things ready just in case. I like to plan. I like to prepare. So for me, that kind of comes naturally, but it might not come naturally for everyone. But just know that you might need to have those things ready.

Farmer Fred:

[20:30] At the CDC website, it talks about how to protect yourself from bird flu for backyard flock owners. they have a picture of a person wearing personal protective equipment. Before they handle a sick bird and they have safety goggles, an N95 respirator, coveralls, disposable gloves, and of course, the rubber boots.

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[20:48] Oh, yes. Well, and if you go to one of their, so what's kind of actually kind of great is that we have labs throughout the state. The closest one to us, you and I, there's one in Davis and there's one down in Turlock, California. And these labs for, , they used to be free, but now I think it's $20 for two birds. So when you go to their center to drop off the birds at their lab, to drop off a bird for diagnosis or for necropsy, they have a car washing station. So you can wash the tires of your vehicle as you come in and then also as you leave. And that's all for biosecurity to make sure that you're not tracking something in that maybe happened to get on your tires.

Farmer Fred:

[21:33] I would imagine there's places like that throughout the country. What are they normally called? if a person wanted to go to one?

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[21:40] That's a great question. I don't know. I think each state might have, they might have different terminology or different names for them. But even Googling it in our own state can be kind of tricky to find.

Farmer Fred:

[21:52] The California Department of Food and Agriculture does run an office called the California Animal Health and Food Safety Laboratory, which offers the necropsy and other testing service for poultry owners.

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[22:07] It is. So there we go.

Farmer Fred:

[22:08] Initials c-a-h-f-s oh good they

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[22:11] Make it really challenging to find it online.

Farmer Fred:

[22:13] Yeah so again that's the california animal health and food safety laboratory. your state will probably have different names wherever you might be listening. probably a good term for googling to find one near you would be “poultry diagnostic labs”. 

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[22:29] that Would probably be the best place to start yes yes, And they'll have, they will have instructions typically. And you can either bring in a live bird. They have you leave it at a certain spot. And then they, , will come out and get the bird. The live bird will not be returned to you because they do perform a necropsy. So they gently euthanize it using gas. And they will then basically take a look at the bird and see what they find. They'll send things off, samples off for diagnosis. And then they'll get back to you. They actually send you a very nice report. And they keep on top of it. They're pretty good. The vets that are located within these programs are usually really wonderful. They love to talk to the poultry owner as well as perform these tests. Now, what people don't know sometimes is that you don't have to bring a live bird. If you've had a bird die recently, like in the last few days or a week, you can actually put it in your refrigerator and they'll accept them even after they've died.

Farmer Fred:

[23:39] Would you put this chicken in the refrigerator or the freezer?

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[23:42] Not the freezer.

Farmer Fred:

[23:43] Oh, not the freezer.

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[23:44] Okay. Not the freezer. And that's because the freezer will tend to damage tissue, makes it much more difficult to thaw out and then retrieve the samples. So refrigerated only, I think those, you can buy like large two gallon Ziploc bags that most chickens will fit into. This is kind of morbid, but  you want to put it in a refrigerator. And then they actually have specific instructions on how to submit your chicken if it's already passed on. So, they do want you to, , you can put in some cold packs as long as it doesn't freeze the tissue. , you have to kind of insulate the chicken. And you can even FedEx the chicken to their lab. They will give you instructions. What people have asked me in the past is they're like, well, if FedEx asked me what this is, , the contents, what am I supposed to say? And just say, just put “laboratory sample” on it. That's what you do is you put laboratory sample. They don't need to show that there's a dead chicken in the box.

Farmer Fred:

[24:49] That's important. , I've noticed online that a lot of these poultry testing operations are connected with schools of veterinary medicine. And so if there's a university in your area that has a good vet program, they may have more information for you about how to take care of this bird flu issue that you might have.

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[25:11] Yeah. And they are going to, there'll be a form that you'll complete no matter what and give them as much information as possible. So things that they're going to ask are, , what's the history of the flock? What size is the flock? Duration of the illness? Did you euthanize the bird or what was the date of death? , they want to know if you were using, was there any treatment or medications that you already tried? And then they might even ask you what diseases or conditions do you suspect, right? Have you had any other birds in your flock, , that have gotten sick or have died recently? Because those numbers also give them an idea of what's going on because there are some diseases or conditions that come on rapidly. So for instance, if you go out and suddenly, oh my gosh, 10 birds of yours are dead within a week, that's urgent. That's where you're wanting to get a hold of them and let them know because something's going on. And usually that's an indicator of how quickly something does spread, but they're going to want to know all the details. And I would share as much with them as you can because that's going to give them insight. They're going to want to know about, , was there any discharge? Was there anything else that you noticed behavioral wise and that kind of thing? Because that all that information helps them figure out what's what's going on or what happened with your chicken.

 Anything vital we should throw in? Basically, chickens that don't feel well will be a little depressed, right? But depressed and kind of not a little bit lethargic, not as active. They don't necessarily have an appetite.

 They might have diarrhea. You could notice something like sudden death or even soft eggs. That's how it can manifest. But the signs and symptoms that we talked about earlier with the breathing, , what does their nostrils look like? Like what's their typical demeanor? I think are all important things to look for.

 And you want to know what's healthy and what's not healthy. So something to consider is that wild birds, like, and again, we're under the main flyway for waterfowl, right, in our area, a particular area of California. So those wild birds, they may actually look healthy, but they are still possibly carrying the virus.

 And so things as simple as washing hands, foot baths, , having a specific pair shoes just for your poultry yard and working with your chickens. But something else that comes up too is the duck hunters, right? We've just finished up, I think, duck season. And people sometimes don't think about that, but you're right there in the environment if you're a duck hunter. So you want to make sure that you keep even things like your clothes away from domestic poultry, because you could be the vector. You could be the person bringing that in if you have chickens in your backyard at home. But there is a bird hotline that you can call. There are lots of resources. And I think specifically in California, I don't think that those are going to go away. But there are things that they're updating. And even for me as a PHI, a poultry health inspector, we have resources too. But even then,  that information can get outdated very quickly, right? And I wouldn't believe everything you're reading online. , I tend to stay with a lot of the government or the university data and information. But because again, people,  there can be a lot of misinformation out there. And I'm definitely not one for fear mongering, right? I don't want to spread misinformation or have people become, , fearful, but you just want to be cautious. I think that's the best way to do it, at least to handle kind of what you feel you need to do to protect your flock the best.

Farmer Fred:

[28:52] And I would think just a good note for, for hunters, especially waterfowl hunters, is to clean your kill on site. Don't bring it home.

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[29:03] Right, right. Have a place to process, , process your birds before you put them in your freezer.

Farmer Fred:

[29:10] A lot of good information from Cherie Sintes-Glover. She runs a wonderful website called chickensforeggs.com. Cherie is a University of California certified poultry health inspector and a master beekeeper apprentice. Cherie Sintas-Glover, check out her website, chickensforeggs.com. Lots of good information, Cherie. Thank you.

Cherie Sintes-Glover:

[29:29] Thank you. Thanks for having me back, Fred. I appreciate it very much and have a wonderful day.

BEYOND THE GARDEN BASICS NEWSLETTER - More Chickens!

Farmer Fred:

[29:38] If you were just listening to our conversation with urban chicken consultant Cherie Sintes-Glover about protecting your backyard chickens from the bird flu, you only heard part of the conversation. Do you want to hear it all?  Our complete chat, which is over an hour long, is in the current Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter and podcast. It contains tips that any prospective or new owner of egg-laying chickens should consider, such as the cost and time involved in starting a flock. And we touch on the importance of having the right resources and knowledge to manage them effectively. We discuss the numerous variables that come into play for first-time chicken owners, including decisions around selecting, housing, feeding, and the necessary care and attention required. And a significant point that we cover is the myth that raising chickens is easy and low cost. Rather, it requires a solid understanding of chickens and a commitment to regular care. Cherie warns against believing everything you read online regarding chicken raising, stressing the necessity of consulting reliable sources. If you're thinking about growing your own eggs, so to speak, this edition of the Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter and podcast is for you. Find a link to it in today's show notes or at our website, gardenbasics.net, and you can also find it on Substack. It's free. It's the Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter and podcast.

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Farmer Fred:

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Q&A: HOW MUCH COMPOST TO ADD FOR POTTED PLANTS?

Farmer Fred:

[32:21] We like to answer your questions here on the Garden Basics podcast. We get a question from Patricia, who writes in and says, “Hi, I love your show. I have a 12 by 8 foot heated greenhouse.” Ooh, lucky Patricia. “I have a large galvanized tub in which I started composting inside the greenhouse”. She says, “I stir it frequently and it's turning into the desirable rich black crumbly compost that I was going for.” Well, congratulations. She has a question. She says, “does it matter that the compost did not reach the high temperatures on the inside? Also, what is the ratio of compost to soil when I pot my flowers?” Very good questions. We are here at the Fair Oaks Horticulture Center on a Saturday workday in February, and we're talking to Master Gardener and compost specialist Janelle Auyeung . And Janelle, I think Patricia's been pretty successful just stirring it.

Janelle Auyeung:

[33:16] I think so, too. It's great that you see your finished compost. You no longer recognize what you put in. Those original ingredients become finished compost. It's nice to reach the temperature, but if it doesn't reach the desired temperature, it still works.

Farmer Fred:

[33:32] It will work, and my only concern is, is she using a soil thermometer or not, or just going by the temperature inside the greenhouse? So if you have a compost pile, and Janelle, you have compost piles at home as well as here, and I bet you have a soil thermometer.

Janelle Auyeung:

[33:46]  I do. I do. I use it. And when you mentioned about the carbon-nitrogen ratio, when it's done right, the temperature can heat up, and I do not have a lot, but my compost pile reached 140 degrees. It's  hot composting.

Farmer Fred:

[33:59] Very good. And that means it goes quicker.

Janelle Auyeung:

[34:02] It goes quicker. It also kills off any seeds that I may have in the pile.

Farmer Fred:

[34:07] Well, that's the other thing we don't know about Patricia's results. If she takes that compost and works it into her potted plants, if any other things are going to pop up.

Janelle Auyeung:

[34:17] Oh, if it pops up, just weed it out and just turn that material into a compost.

Farmer Fred:

[34:22] But as she said, the end result is a desirable, rich, black, crumbly compost. And that's exactly what you're going for. And even though it happened quicker, if it was heated, like to 140 degrees, but it'll still happen. Slow composting works.

Janelle Auyeung:

[34:38] Composts happen. Yeah, the more you turn it, the faster you get compost.

Farmer Fred:

[34:42] All right. So, actually, Patricia, you answered your own question on that one. You don't really need those high temperatures, but like you said, Janelle, you're probably actually increasing the temperature every time you turn it.

Janelle Auyeung:

[34:54] Yes, because you are putting in air into the pile.

Farmer Fred:

[34:57] Yep. Air is one of the magic ingredients about making compost.

Janelle Auyeung:

[35:01] It's also free.

Farmer Fred:

[35:02] Yes, we like that. All right. And then she has a technical question there. What is the ratio of compost to soil when I pot my flowers? I think a lot of people would vary on their answer as far as the percentages you put in. And it would also depend on - are you putting it in the ground or are you putting it in a pot?

Janelle Auyeung:

[35:22] That's exactly the issue. And also, how much compost do you have?

Farmer Fred:

[35:27] Yeah, that's true. But I think if you're if you have a heavy clay soil and you were planting in the ground, I'd probably use maybe 25, 30 percent compost in whatever I put back in that hole. But it should be the native soil you put back in that hole with that compost mixed in. For a pot, you can pretty easily measure how much compost to put in because you know the volume of the pot. And if you're looking at 25 percent, 30 percent or whatever, you can pretty well make a good guess on that.

Janelle Auyeung:

[35:55] It's not exact science. And how much do I have?  When I put it in the ground, I have extra. I put in extra. If I don't have extra, oh, sorry, not this time.

Farmer Fred:

[36:05] I think one thing that a lot of people forget about, though, is when they're putting up potted plants, if they bought a potting mix. And in a little scenic bypass here, we should point out that if you are planting in a pot, it is better to use a commercial potting mix rather than your native soil, because who knows what's in that native soil?

Janelle Auyeung:

[36:23] And also, who knows what is in the commercial compost? Hopefully they're good. One time I did hear somebody come to the Fair Oaks Horticulture Center and ask us, “how come if I use commercially bought compost, all my plants die? Well, I don't know exactly what may happen, but we are speculating it could be some herbicide. Was their residual herbicide in the composting raw material?

Farmer Fred:

[36:49] This is very true.

Janelle Auyeung:

[36:51] Yeah. Some breakdown, and it has the lingering effect impacting the vegetables that she's trying to grow.

Farmer Fred:

[36:57] If your source of compost is coming from an urban source where the city waste department or whatever is collecting your green waste and composting that, there are some herbicides, especially in weed and feed products, if you use those on your lawn, that can persist for years, like up to five years in that soil, even though it's compost.

Janelle Auyeung:

[37:19] That's true. But I'm sure the commercially sold compost, they've been tested, and they need to pass stringent standard in order to show them.

Farmer Fred:

[37:29] Exactly. But, I mean, if you want to be really sure, you could do all the mixing yourself. If you're making a potting mix, you could make it especially for the plant you're growing. For instance, if you're growing in pots, if you're growing blueberries, you want sort of an acid soil mix. So you might use a combination of a rhododendron azalea camellia soil mix along with some small bark and something that has an acidic nature to it like peat moss and mix the three together and maybe put in a handful of soil sulfur and that would be a perfect pH of around 5.5 for your blueberries. In her potted plants, in Patricia's potted plants, for using compost, I think maybe do some tests. I wouldn't plant a lot of pots up with that fresh compost, but try it on a few first and see what happens.

Janelle Auyeung:

[38:15] Oh, that's a great idea. And that's more reason to make your own compost. All right. Oh, yeah, she's already doing it. Good job, Patricia.

Farmer Fred:

[38:23] Exactly. We won't get into the details. We've done that on so many episodes of what goes into compost. But there are a lot of instructions online, and we'll have a note in today's show notes about making your own compost and what you need. Janelle Auyeung , Master Gardener here in Sacramento County. It's the Fair Oaks Horticulture Center workday on a Saturday in February, and the sun is shining. Yay! Janelle, thank you.

Janelle Auyeung:

[38:46] You're welcome.

Music:

[38:47] Music

Farmer Fred:

[38:53] Garden Basics with Farmer Fred comes out every Friday and it's brought to you by Dave Wilson Nursery. Garden Basics is available wherever podcasts are handed out. For more information about the podcast, as well as an accurate transcript of the podcast, visit our website, gardenbasics.net. And thank you so much for listening and your support.