310 Q&A Homegrown Chicken Food?

Show Transcript

Garden Basics Podcast  #310 Q&A Homegrown Chicken Food? TRANSCRIPT

SPEAKERS

Cherie Sintes-Glover, Farmer Fred

Farmer Fred  00:05

Welcome back to the Tuesday edition of the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. Unlike the Friday edition, we're dedicating the Tuesday podcast to answering your garden questions. Stay tuned to find out how you can get your garden question into the program. So come on, let's do this. 

Farmer Fred  00:26

We like to answer your garden questions here on the Garden Basics podcast. A lot of ways for you to get in, you can leave an audio question without making a phone call. You do it via SpeakPipe. Go to speakpipe.com/gardenbasicsand yell at your computer. You, of course, can use your phone to call us or text us or send pictures to 916-292-8964, 916-292-8964. At our homepage, gardenbasics.net, you can fill out the contact box and ask a question that way. Or you can just send a gosh darn good old email to Fred at farmerfred.com. 

Farmer Fred  01:05

Here's a question that came in to gardenbasics.net. It's from Joshua, he lives in South West Missouri, and he has a chicken question. He asks, "we own chickens and are trying to become more self sufficient and sustaining. Instead of buying feed for them, is there a way to grow their whole diet in the garden? I've looked online but the only nutrition info about a chicken's diet is mainly their protein percentage needed. What about the other macro and micronutrients?" Joshua says he lives in zone 6B, in southwest Missouri. He goes on to ask, "Is there a list of crops to grow that would make a balanced nutritious daily meal for the egg layers? So far, I've done the math and about one and a half cups of soybeans would meet all the daily protein needs for my six chickens. But I have no idea about everything else. Also, how different will a chickens diet need to be if they are meat chickens?" 

Farmer Fred  02:02

That's a lot of questions, Joshua. So let's bring in a chicken expert. It is, of course, Cherie Sintes-Glover, of the website chickensforeggs.com. She is an urban chicken consultant, and has been that way for many, many years. She has a wonderful homepage, and she's going to Alabama to speak. And it's a conference called the National Backyard Poultry Conference, going on at the Alabama 4H Center in Colombiana, Alabama March 15 and 16th. She'll be one of the speakers there. Cherie, good to talk with you again. You've been a poultry enthusiast for over 20 years. You're certified by the state of California as, I guess, a fair chicken inspector.

Cherie Sintes Glover  02:44

PHI right, poultry health inspector.

Farmer Fred  02:47

Not that you're, you know, fair; meaning you're just adequate. I mean, you're excellent, I'm sure. But it happens at fairs, isn't it? You're a fair poultry inspector.

Farmer Fred  02:54

And as an urban chicken consultant, you give a lot of advice for people who want to raise backyard chickens. And I imagine that Joshua isn't the first person to ask you about what food they can grow for their chickens.

Cherie Sintes Glover  02:54

I am. So, the poultry health inspector program started back when we had what was called Virulent Newcastle disease. And what they wanted to do is have a way for poultry that were entered into a fair or an expo to go through some kind of health check, and also use it as an educational opportunity to educate the poultry owners. And we're talking youth, adults, everyone in between to kind of help them understand and identify if there are health issues with their chickens. So while we can't diagnose, we're not veterinarians, we're not vet techs, we're trained to recognize illnesses or signs of illness or disease in chickens and then make recommendations. So from that standpoint, yeah. Fairs and expos totally hire PHI's to come in. And it could be to check in all the meats or the market poultry, it could be the exhibition or the show poultry that come in, it can just be a wide variety of birds. So you have to be kind of knowledgeable about all those different breeds and varieties and birds that might come into the fair.

Cherie Sintes Glover  04:12

Well, Joshua asks a pretty common question. So,  I was thinking about this. And I thought, gosh, you know, these days, people want to grow their own things. That's why we garden. That's why we want to be self-sustaining. We want to have our own vegetables, our own fruits. Even this morning, I was feeding my sourdough starter that was on the counter, right? So we like to make things ourselves, we like to feel as though we're contributing to being more healthy in what we do and the activities that we participate in. So I think a lot of people like Joshua have that question, right? They have their backyard chickens because they want eggs, they want meat, they want to have something that they know they've grown themselves. And so the natural transition is, do I really have to buy all of this feed from the feed stores or is there a way to grow it myself? So he did he asked a good question.

Farmer Fred  05:02

Is there a good answer? 

Cherie Sintes Glover  05:03

there is. So here's the answer. The thing to think about when you want to try and grow your own feed for your livestock, whether it's chickens, or sheep, or cows, or whatever it might be, you have to consider what those nutrients are that are required for that species. So with poultry, we know that there are many different stages of life with poultry and they actually need different nutritional supplements during that time. And even commercial poultry producers,  they actually will go through  five or more different types of diets as they're growing that chicken, from chick all the way up to being processed ror even as a laying hen. So the first thing to remember is actually knowing that there's those different stages. And knowing that you would have to literally do different types of feed, if you were going to sustain that chicken. The most critical time happens to be those first few weeks after that chick has hatched. And that's because they are rapidly developing. They're developing their gastro-intestinal system, they're developing their immune systems. And what we found is that they have a very high critical need for amino acids. So if they don't get those in, if they have any kind of deprivation,  so you bring those chicks home, you're raising them, suddenly, you know, they're out of water, they're out of feed, any kind of deprivation like that, or any kind of stressors, like maybe their heat lamp has gone out. That not only impacts them then, but actually their growth. And it can even impact their production later on. So having that insight and understanding on how important that nutritional values are. And what you're feeding them, especially early on, is really critical. It's important. So Joshua talks about, can I just grow my own? I know that maybe soybeans might provide enough protein. But when you look into and actually start researching all the different other nutrients that are in like your typical layer feed, it gets a little complicated, it gets a little in depth. And at that point, I think Joshua might need to consider really, how much time does he want to put into that? How much feed is he actually needing to create or produce for his first flock of chickens? Because there's a point of where you have to really look at your return on investment, and figure out okay, is this really worth my time, if I'm only feeding, you know, 20 chickens? Am I wanting to kind of set up the equipment and obtain all of those different nutrients that I'm going to need to make a complete feed? Because at that point, he might just want to just open up his own milling operation. Currently, if you have 20 backyard chickens. So what it comes down to is, is it really worth his time and his effort? And is that really going to benefit the chickens? And the reality is, these days, we have such great feed available to us. Sometimes people depending on where they're located, they can find a local mill company that can do some of that for them, that can put everything in. They can make almost like a custom type feed, then we have a lot of ones that are just your regular brands that you find in the feed store. And we actually do have a lot of choices for our chickens. So at the end of the day, he may find that it's going to be much simpler and more complete, if he just goes with one of those that he can produce or that he can not produce himself but actually purchase. 

Farmer Fred  08:28

Well, let's humor him for a minute or two here. And for the sake of argument, assume that he only needs an hour and a half sleep at night, and has unlimited funding to process the food that he needs to grow in order to feed his chickens at every life stage. What are some of the foods that would be necessary for him to grow?

Cherie Sintes Glover  08:51

Oh, gosh, I think the soybeans could be something. But as far as other kinds of crops/ Gosh, that would be a challenge.  I'm not an expert in poultry nutrition when it comes to that micro level. But there are there are resources. So for instance, UC Davis,  their veterinary program actually has a great poultry or avian Science page ( https://ucanr.edu/sites/poultry/type/backyard/ ). And they've actually done a few webinars on nutrition. You know, another thing he might want to do is maybe contact his local mill, if he does have one. Then, work with them to see what they even have available, but actually picking things for him to grow. I think the challenge there will be he will be tempted. Joshua, you'll be tempted to grow things that you might be able to offer us treats. That's something you also have to really watch. The reason for that is treats are just exactly that. They're just like we feed our dogs and cats treats. If we feed our chickens treats, that's taking away from the nutrition that they need on a daily basis. Chickens actually don't need a whole lot. I know there are certain times a year that they do increase their intake because they're beginning production again. Maybe they're going through a moult, the feed that we want to give them, given that it's such a small amount, we're talking a cup to two cups per day per chicken, it's such a small amount that you actually want that feed to be as nutritious as possible. Get more bang for your buck. Give them as highly nutritious feed as you can in that small amount that they're eating.

Farmer Fred  10:27

I was looking at some of these commercial products that are available, of course period is there I mean, they even have elephant Chow. But I guess for laying hens, for example, there's a product called Layena, L, a, y, e, n, a.

Cherie Sintes Glover  10:41

And as there's Layena,  there's many different ones  like Swanson feeds, Purina. There's Neutrena, there's so many on the market. And these days,  you can buy chicken feed just about anywhere. You can buy them online through some of those mail order supply houses, or from big box stores. And then my favorite, though, is always the local feed store. And that's because you're going to possibly find some  niche feeds that you're interested in, as well as more variety. The people that are helping you, hopefully, they know a little bit more about the different feeds than maybe  your regular pet store. But your chickens. So for instance, you know your chicks, if you bring home chicks from the feed store, you're gonna feed them a chick starter, which is actually a higher protein, because remember, they need more of those amino acids, that higher protein in those first few weeks, and then you're possibly going to transition as soon as your chickens go through that pullet stage, they're going to need a little bit more protein as well. And then as they get into the laying stage, you're going to want to get a feed that's somewhere between 18 to 20% of protein. Now Joshua also asked about broilers and the difference in the feeds between the  laying hen versus a broiler. And broilers are really made to grow very quickly. So they're looking at a protein percentage of maybe 25- 26%,  as a minimum, just because they grow so fast. And broilers are being raised more for meat production, versus long term egg production. If that helps.

Farmer Fred  12:16

Yeah, I was looking at a label for an organic chicken layer feed product. And they were a little bit more helpful than Purina was with their Layena products, which contain things like grain byproducts, and grain products, plant protein products, whatever that is, calcium carbonate, salt, Marigold extract - go figure, calcium, vitamin E, vitamin d3, not much in the way of things that you could plant in a garden, it sounds like. But there is this organic product called Nature's Best chicken feed.

Cherie Sintes Glover  12:50

 I've heard that one, there's also man, there was a company called Manna Pro, that  kind of specialized in some organic feeds too. And  I think that's the whole point, is that there's a lot of options available. So you really don't have to go through all the trouble of  growing and drying and processing all these things that you might find on the label. I think it's easy for us to go to those labels, and I should have brought my stack in, because I tend to save my poultry bags, my poultry feed bags. What's interesting is that each one of them is a little bit different. It is confusing sometimes, just as the cat and dog food labels that you go and find, right? There's grain free, not grain free. What do you want? raw food diet versus there's so many options for cats and dogs. And it's becoming that same way with poultry. So at the end of the day, what I find is interesting is that even myself, I like to mix feeds. So I may prefer a smaller pellet feed by Neutrena. And I will mix that with a local mill, Swanson layer crumble, then I might add in some pigeon grit in there too. So there's nothing that says you can't do that. So if you do find,  whether it's organic feeds or a variety, and you want to kind of combine them. The key is this. The key is that don't always go for the cheapest one that you can find. And especially when it comes to those early weeks, when you have chicks home from the store, you want to feed them good. go ahead and splurge spend the extra money to get the best feed that you can, especially in those first four to six weeks. And then maybe as they get older, you can transition to something that's maybe  a little less expensive. But I think right now, especially with the economy the way it is, a lot of people are trying to make those kinds of decisions. And you notice that  organic feeds are always more expensive than maybe some of the others. Don't go for the cheapest stuff, at least not in the beginning. But that pricing may influence also what you're choosing to feed. 

Farmer Fred  14:53

Looking at the real food ingredients on some of these bags of chicken feed. These ingredients require processing. Corn, soybean meal, wheat, wheat middlings? Don't ask me what wheat middlings are.

Cherie Sintes Glover  15:06

I don't know what those are either.

Farmer Fred  15:08

Cereal byproducts which could include wheat, corn, sorghum, barley or rye? Yeah now I understand why you're really pushing Joshua into the feed store. 

Cherie Sintes Glover  15:22

Well, you think of how much space you would need to grow all those different things, right, and then equipment. Really at that point, Joshua may want to consider creating his own mill. Because again,  if his goal is to feed his,  I don't know how many chickens he has, you know, a flock of 10, or 20, there's so many actually really great options out there that are already processed, good quality feeds that he can choose from. If now, if he had 200 chickens he might be then  working with a mill, a local mill, to maybe customize a feed that he feels is going to best meet the nutritional needs of his chickens. But all of that factors right into that decision. And now, for the folks that are saying,   "All they need is some scratch, and maybe I can feed them some scraps from the kitchen and they can ravage my garden when when I'm done with it." It's still not going to meet the nutritional needs that  chickens have. And that's why they have formulated some really great feeds that are already readily available. And even the commercial folks know this. That's why they have,  five or more different diets, that they feed those chickens through their lifetime, because they've realized that it does have an impact on production and on the chickens' health. So stay away from trying to do maybe an easy route, the  "I'm just going to feed him a bag of scraps from the feed store". Instead, go with that complete feed. So that's what I would recommend to Joshua. And do some research, watch some videos, UC Davis, again, has some really great materials, they're going to actually be talking about that as well at Cooptastic. And I'll mention that they're actually going to do a full program. Joshua is in Missouri. So I don't know if he can make it over to Alabama, but they're going to be talking about the hobby farm, on their  business track, they're even going to talk about homesteading, there's classes on that. And then also just getting back to basics with beginning and intermediate poultry raising. So it depends. I'm curious now about how large or what size his flock is and what his plans are.

Farmer Fred  17:25

I have questions. As always, there is a movement away from ultra processed foods  for our own bodies, and reading the list of ingredients that are in some of these chicken feed recipes, they sound like ultra processed ingredients to me. So if you wanted to feed your chickens more naturally, I have to go back to my grandma and grandpa back on the farm in Beach, North Dakota, in the early 1900s. Grandpa, what did you feed your chickens?

Farmer Fred  17:55

Of course the internet makes it an easy search for all of these answers to questions. And the website, hobbyfarms.com, says that "in addition to green food, turn of the century chickens (I'm sure they mean from the 19th to the 20th century, turn of the century), chickens ate rations comprising grains, protein for milk, or meat, and scraps from the family table. Bits of bread, cheese, meat, cake, pie doughnuts, all kinds of vegetables are served up to the hands. Nothing in the way of food comes amiss." But I wonder what the size and the productivity of a chicken in 1900 was versus what a chicken is today on a modern diet. I am sure that today's chicken is more productive as far as egg laying goes, and probably a bit of a heftier bird to for broiling.

Cherie Sintes Glover  17:55

Oh, that's a great question. I wonder. You really want to find an answer for Joshua? Yeah, I think you would have to. And that's even something that I would do if that was my goal. I would honestly go through and I would start going back to basics with the books. And I would find books on raising poultry back in that day. And I'd have to do that. I'd have to go back and do the research and kind of see what did. What did they feed chickens? Because back in the Depression days, chickens were not just about feeding the family. A lot of families, the only way they could get by would be to sell the eggs. And so they had to have chickens that would produce well enough to be able to sell eggs. There has to be a way to do it. I think if he  went back and was able to find some of those books from that period and take a look at what people were doing before those processed feeds were there. The only exception to that I'll mention and this is me kind of being the devil's advocate is I think now we do know more science, we do know more about the nutrients and what nutritional values are needed by chickens, right? We have more research these days, we know more now than we did back then. We have to take that into consideration. They might have made it work back in the 1920s. Right, because that was the only stuff they had available. But these days, we do have more education and information on what needs to be a quote unquote "a complete diet for chickens". And I wouldn't totally discount that there might be a way  for Joshua to produce his own or others to produce their own chicken feeds, but it's going to be an investment. At the end of the day, he is going to want to not only make absolutely sure the feed is complete that he's growing or feeding, but I don't think he has to reinvent the wheel, either.

Cherie Sintes Glover  20:35

Oh, absolutely. They've done some research and studies on this because the birds, the backyard chickens of today, are actually a little overweight. And it's kind of comical, because you know, when I think of the movie Chicken Run, right, you have these wonderfully fluffy chickens. And back in the day,  they really weren't. They were a little more streamlined, I think. But  it causes more health concerns and issues for chickens now. That's why chickens don't always live as long. And they absolutely have heart issues. And it can all contribute back to that. Wait, it's pretty funny. What's also factoring in is I think the number of treats that people randomly feed to their chickens. And these days, you can, again, go into any feed store or an online mail order company. Everybody has those treats, and are those really a healthy thing to be feeding your chickens? It's fun, right? It's just like, it's fun just to have treats for your other animals, your dogs and your cats. But should that be their main source of nutrition or be a big part of their diet? And the answer is always, it's always no, right? What did they tell us? Fred, they tell us we have to eat in moderation, right? We can't eat ice cream every day. As much as we'd love to have those goodies. Same thing goes for our chickens. And so you have to think about that, too. I think I am a firm believer that where there's a will, there's a way. I don't think folks should necessarily, skimp,  especially if they have younger chickens and pullets. I think it's important to really do that research. Don't just follow what you see online sometimes. And know that there are actually lots of alternatives out there. So just make sure your chicken feed is complete, whatever it is, that you choose to feed them. don't just feed them the treats.

Cherie Sintes Glover  21:00

Scratch? Yeah, it seems like Scratch is a pretty common answer. As far as chicken food from the good old days, I'm seeing table scraps, scratch grains, egg shells, and clabbered milk, whatever that is, in addition to what they obtained from foraging.

Cherie Sintes Glover  22:49

Well, you know, chickens are carnivores. So they will they'll eat meat. That's why I've heard so many different stories. And I've even seen my chickens go after mice, right? Mice love to try and get into the chicken feeders. And especially if you live out in the country or in a rural environment, you know, even in town, but mice are always a problem for us that are living out here in the country. And I have cats for that. But the chickens will actually go after them too. And they  won't just get it to kill it and attack it. They'll actually eat the mouse. They don't have teeth. So I'm not quite sure how that all works. I don't know how they make it happen. But somehow they do.

Farmer Fred  23:28

I think one person here has a bit of logic on this whole thing. They say yes, you can feed alternative foods and scraps. But the condition, longevity, and production abilities of the birds often declines when they do not get enough of the right nutritional components in their diet.

Cherie Sintes Glover  23:46

Yeah, at the end of the day, I think  that's the key. So as much as we'd love it to be as simple as, "Oh, I'm just going to feed my chickens soybeans," it just doesn't work that way. There's other things that they need and then even what they need at different ages will factor into exactly what you feed your chickens. So at the end of the day, it has to be nutritionally appropriate whatever it is that you end up doing. Whether you're able to grow it all yourself versus picking up a bag from the feed store, just make sure that their diet is complete so you're gonna get the really the best chicken that you can.

Farmer Fred  24:20

It's not just what falls off the truck on the way to the barn.  Well, I have one I have one more question on this. You mentioned pigeon grit. Is that made out of pigeons?

Cherie Sintes Glover  24:32

It is.

Farmer Fred  24:33

I wasn't expecting that! 

Cherie Sintes Glover  24:37

Pigeon grit is a smaller grained grit and it typically has other kinds of minerals in it as well. For me, it's kind of like feeding  electrolytes in the summer. Put that in the chickens water so it's a way to kind of add grit to the chickens diet, as well as add some extra minerals, that kind of thing, in case they need it. And you know, it's the Interesting is Dr. Pittsky, with UC Davis, he recently in a webinar talked about the percentage of grit that they find when they do necropsies on chickens. And they actually find that backyard chicken flocks, just naturally, they have more grit in their crop when they when they do that examination. And that's because those chickens are typically foraging. They're picking up and eating those different pieces of rock and pebbles and things out in the environment. So sometimes chickens can actually have too much grit and too much calcium if they're backyard chickens. Because if you're adding that to their diet, as well as them getting it naturally in the environment, that can cause some problems. That was a long answer for pigeon grit. But no, it is not made out of pigeon.

Farmer Fred  25:50

Oh! I just wanted clarification on that. That pigeon grit is not made out of ground up pigeons.

Cherie Sintes Glover  25:57

No, no, not in the least.

Farmer Fred  25:59

I'm just making sure that's all right. Well, Joshua, I think you need to make friends with your local feed stores and find out who has the happiest chickens around you, and maybe match that diet. Do you have any ideas on that?

Cherie Sintes Glover  26:17

What Joshua might want to do is start figuring out if there are any local mills in his area, and talking to the feed stores, because who knows, there  could be a co op, there could be a whole group that make large quantities of feed that he can kind of pull into, right. So him being in Missouri, I don't know what they grow out there. But you will find there even for instance, in our area in California, down towards the Modesto area, there are a couple of mills that you can work with. And they're very well could be a whole other group of people that are doing the same thing as him and want to have something that's maybe a little bit less processed but complete and he could join in on that type of co-op to answer your questions.

Farmer Fred  27:03

The Missouri Department of Agriculture says major products include livestock, poultry, forest products and crops. Among crop production in Missouri, they grow soybeans, corn, cotton, and rice. Those are predominant in Missouri. Consistently ranking in the top 10, nationwide, for the production of those four major commodities. 

Cherie Sintes Glover  27:23

Very interesting. So yeah,  there we go.

Farmer Fred  27:28

All right. I think we've solved the issue. And he just needs to go shopping. Lord, 45 minutes to say "no". All right. Well, we did it. Now, Cherie, again, you're going to be in Columbiana, Alabama. On March 15-16. Okay. Yeah, at the Alabama 4H Center, there in Columbiana, Alabama. And what are you going to be talking about?

Cherie Sintes Glover  28:01

I'm actually doing the portion on show chickens. So I'm going to be talking on what does it mean to  actually show your poultry? How do you use that into your breeding program, what are the results? As well, as what do you need to do to get ready for a show? What does it mean to raise show chickens? A lot of people think that you can just go to the feed store, buy some chicks, raise them up, take them to a poultry show. But there is actually standards that people have to follow for specific breeds and varieties of purebred chickens. So we'll kind of talk a little bit about that, and hopefully answer some questions  for folks that have maybe never shown poultry. Maybe they've just had that backyard flock  for eggs. And now they're interested in  getting more into the show scene, which is a big thing. It's amazing. There's poultry shows all over the country. And they're super fun to go to because you get to see so many chickens, all at once. But that's what I'm going to be presenting on Saturday the 16th.

Farmer Fred  29:17

 It's Cooptastic, the national backyard poultry conference coming up March 15 to 16th in Alabama. For more information. Go to Cherie's website, chickenforeggs.com for a link to that event. And for more great information about raising your backyard chickens. Cherie Sintes-Glover, thanks so much. 

Cherie Sintes Glover  29:37

You're welcome. Thank you, Fred.

Farmer Fred  29:44

The Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast has a lot of information posted at each episode in the show notes. Maybe you'd rather read it and listen to it. That's not a problem. We have a complete transcript posted and you can find that link in the show notes. or on our new homepage, garden basics.net That's where you can find that link as well as all the previous episodes of the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. There, you can leave a message or link up with our social media pages, including our YouTube video page, and at Gardenbasics.net. Click on the tab at the top of the page to read the Garden Basics "Beyond the Basics" newsletter. Plus in the show notes there are links to any products or books mentioned during the show, and other helpful links for even more information. Want to leave us a question? Again, check the links at Gardenbasics.net And when you click on any episode at Gardenbasics.net, you're gonna find a link to Speakpipe, where you can leave us an audio question without making a phone call. Or, go to them directly, at speakpipe.com/garden basics . You want to call us? We have that number posted at Gardenbasics.net Spoiler alert, it's 916-292-8964 916-292-8964. E-mail? Sure, send it along with your pictures to Fred at farmerfred.com. Or again go to gardenbasics.net to get that link. And if you send us a question, be sure to tell us where you're gardening. Because as I am fond of saying, all gardening is local. Find it all at Gardenbasics.net 

Farmer Fred  31:23

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred comes out every Tuesday and Friday and it's brought to you by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Garden Basics. It's available wherever podcasts are handed out. For more information about the podcast visit our website, gardenbasics.net And that's where you can find out about the free garden basics newsletter, "Beyond the Basics." And thank you so much for listening.