250 Garden Basics Greatest Hits, Pt. 3. A First Garden Checklist

Show Transcript

Transcript for Ep 250 Greatest Hits of 2022, Part 3 “First Garden”

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, the original lightweight, long lasting fabric plant container. It's made in the USA. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount, that's SmartPots.com/Fred.

Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, you've come to the right spot.

Welcome to Part 3 of our four part series, the 2022 greatest hits of Garden Basics with Farmer Fred. The four parts include the top 10 most listened-to segments last year. In part 1, we talked about tomatoes. That included choosing the easiest to grow varieties, do you need to prune young tomato plants and tomato flowers, the best tomatoes for containers, and battling blossom end rot in tomatoes. If you’re a backyard tomato grower, go back and listen to Episode 248 for lots of great tips on growing tomatoes. In part 2 we talked with Grow Now author Emily Murphy. She talked about a way to build your soil without having to purchase bags or yards of potting mix. It’s called lasagna gardening. And in part 2, we visited with Master Gardener and accomplished home blackberry, boysenberry and raspberry grower, Pam Bone, who had lots of good tips for growing these tasty, healthy treats.

Today, in Part 3, it’s a Debbie Flower extravaganza. Our favorite retired college horticulture professor discusses how to reuse old potting soil, tips for reducing water use in the yard, and a checklist for starting your first garden. And if you’ve moved and are thinking of starting a new garden, a lot of these first garden tips may include ideas you haven’t considered before starting that new garden.

We’re podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory. It’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Let’s go!

First Garden Checklist (originally aired in Episode 183)

Farmer Fred   

At one point or another, everybody has a first garden. A lot of people get the bug, maybe when they go to a nursery and see some plants they like and figure it's time to start. Whoa, just hold on a minute. Before you plant anything, we have a checklist for you. Before you start your first garden, we have things you ought to consider. Consider this, your first garden checklist. Debbie Flower is here. And here we are, in Debbie Flower's garden. And even though, Debbie, you're an accomplished gardener, a retired college horticultural professor, by the way, America's favorite retired college horticulture professor, we should point out that anytime you move to a new house, it's a new challenge. It's a new garden. And it's kind of hard to tell gardeners this, but one piece of advice is live with the yard for a year. And notice where the sun goes.

Farmer Fred    

Absolutely living with the yard for a year is very difficult to do. But it is worth doing. And I've had many gardens. And I can't say that I have the patience that would allow you to live with the garden for a year.

Farmer Fred   

Well, there's pots. Have you heard of Smart Pots?

Debbie Flower    

Yes. And then there are annuals. And so, going out with sunflower seeds in the summer or just trying things and making sure they get enough water and seeing what happens is what you can do during that first year when you need to see where the sun is in the middle of winter, in the middle of summer, in early spring, and in fall.

Farmer Fred    

Yeah, one thing we did when we moved to the new house six years ago: we lived with it for a year, we planted in pots temporarily. And I took pictures of the yard at four different times of the year, throughout the day. So, every three months or so, I'd take a picture. I'd take a picture at 9am, at noon, 3pm and 6pm. Just so I would remember where the shadows are, where the shade is. Because all the neighbors had big trees. And I wanted to know definitely which of those areas are going to get full sun, that's six to eight hours or more of sun a day. Turns out, not many areas got full sun.

Debbie Flower   

Yes. And then you convinced your neighbors to remove some of those trees which, you know, by taking those pictures, you knew what needed to go. Pictures are wonderful; not only do they inform you of sun and shade, but they show you how your yard is changing over time and what wonderful things you've done to it.

Farmer Fred   

And that's the other thing, too, to consider, even if it's not your first garden: plants grow and there are new areas of shade. So if you're going to be putting in plants that require full sun, you have to stay aware that the area that was full sun five years ago may not be full sun now. I guess when we're talking about planning a first garden, we should get a little bit more specific. Are we talking a flower garden and herb garden, a vegetable garden? I guess with the vegetable garden one thing you should make note of is what does your family enjoy eating? And no there are no french fry plants.

Debbie Flower   

Yes, I have a vegetable bed, one raised bed, and some in-ground area that I use for growing vegetables. And my production of vegetables has decreased over time because of the things my family will not eat. So why should I grow them? If nobody's going to eat them? I have neighbors I can give some stuff too. But I remember showing up at one neighbor's house with some tomatoes, and she said, "You know, I'm not gonna eat all your leftover tomatoes this summer." "Okay, fine, do you want these?" She took those, but we never took any back. So the vegetable garden has gotten smaller. And at times, I thought about just converting it to annual flowers so that I could have bouquets of flowers. I mentioned that to a horticulture friend. And she said, as long as you have a good Farmer's Market nearby, yes, you do need to decide what you're going to grow, what's going to make you happy. And look for those sun shade conditions, six to eight hours of full sun for those flowers or those vegetables is definitely desirable. And I in fact, had to move my raised bed this year, because a tree got bigger, and it started shading the bed and I wasn't getting enough sun for production.

Farmer Fred   

Another thing that beginning gardeners tend to do is: their eyes are bigger than their tummy. And when it comes to planting, they'll put in way too much, you know those suggestions on the back of seed packets, and that come with six packs of plants as far as spacing of plants, that's actually pretty good advice.

Debbie Flower  

It is. And if you're looking at landscape plants, rather than annuals, which are things you're going to grow from seed, you need to look at the size the plant is going to be when it's mature, that's typically on the tag. If not, you're gonna have to look the plant up and and find out how tall and wide it's going to become. Sometimes you only learn how tall it's going to become, then you assume it will be equally as wide, and then space them in the garden so that they will, at maturity, not run into each other. Maybe they'll touch. Then you have to decide, where is your path is going to be? Where do you want to be able to walk between the plants? Where can the plants touch, but you need to give them enough space to get big enough. A friend of mine is a landscape architect. And I asked her when I was teaching what, if there was one thing she could say to people when they are planting their gardens or yards, what would it be? And her number one thing was space the plants far enough apart. More problems are created by them being too close together than anything else. And I'm guilty of that as well, planting too close together. Because it's so easy to do. When you buy them they're so small and cute, and they look so pretty together. And having these wide spaces between them doesn't make a lot of sense, but space them for their health and for the future of your garden.

Farmer Fred    

And not only is it healthier for the plant, it also can keep bad pests and diseases away, as well. Because when you cut down air circulation by planting too close together, especially if you live in an area of high humidity, you can have all sorts of disease issues that can be mitigated by allowing air to circulate freely through those plants. 

Debbie Flower  

Absolutely true. Yes. 

Farmer Fred   

And when you're walking around your yard, figuring out what you want to plant and where you want to put it. Go inside the house and look out the windows. And think about where you spend most of your time indoors, and which windows you're going to be looking out. And think about what you want to stare at for the rest of your life out those windows. And especially if you have a kitchen window, the vegetable garden, the fruit trees, the food products should be with an easy view of that kitchen window.

Debbie Flower  

Yes, when I initially laid the hardscape in this landscape we're sitting in right now, the landscaper suggested putting the vegetable garden in a place I would not see it from the patio or any window and I said no, I have to be able to see it on a regular basis. So I tended to keep that in mind, too.

Farmer Fred    

When you're planning the garden, do some sitting inside and look out and think about what you want to see that's out there. And remember that taller plants closer to your window may block the view of whatever's behind it. So if you want a complete view of the yard, if you're going to put in those trees or those shrubs, you may want to stick those further out so you can see the rest of your garden. Or, if you're trying to create some privacy, then you would want those taller plants closer to the window.

Debbie Flower 

Or you can create outdoor garden "rooms". It makes your landscape feel bigger if you create where you can only see a small area, and then you have to walk around a plant to see the next area in your garden. Lots of different ways. I love the looking out the window idea as a way to design the garden. I don't necessarily want to see my neighbor's house when I look outside the window. And so I've done lots of view-blocking by planting trees and evergreen shrubs in places that will block those views.

Farmer Fred   

When you're planning your garden, one thing to keep in mind is: "Where's the water faucet?" How big of a chore is it going to be to water that garden? And this is where planning may require some pencil and paper because you may want to lay out an irrigation system, perhaps even a drip irrigation system.

Debbie Flower    

You may want that and in our dry California climate, that's almost a must. But I've lived in places that get rain year round, and in that case, we just needed to be near a hose bib. We still needed to be near that hose bib, instead of dragging it, you know, 50 feet across from the back of the garage over to the vegetable garden. So having that in place is critical.

Farmer Fred  

Exactly. So plan on installing a permanent irrigation system so that the water controls are as close to the garden as possible. Or if you're putting in an entire irrigation system for the whole yard. Consider valves that are dedicated to the vegetables that you can put on different timers as opposed to if you have a lawn.

Debbie Flower   

Lawns are some of the highest water users in the landscape. So many things can survive with much less water than that. Even in our climate here, that is dry definitely from May through October, I don't water most of my landscape more than once every two weeks or so. Lawns, especially lawns that are mowed, need to be watered more frequently than that. Grass needs more water so you don't want everything on the same watering regime.

Farmer Fred  

To plant a garden you need soil and if you're not doing it in pots, if you're doing it in the ground, and you haven't planted a garden in your yard before what are some first steps you should take?

Debbie Flower  

Well sometimes if you move into a place like we did here that was empty for two years, because it was back when mortgages were in trouble in 2008. The landscape was not  maintained and it was full of weeds. So the first thing to do is clear those weeds away.

Farmer Fred    

Clear the weeds away. And there is debate now about roto tilling soil. And I could justify roto tilling once, initially, to put in some compost. But if you don't want to do that, one easy way to improve your soil is through sheet mulching.

Debbie Flower   

Yes, sheet mulching. I did that at my mother's house. She wanted to add some perennials around her shed, near a light on a post in the yard near the driveway. And so one time I went out and laid down a bunch of newspaper. It takes several layers of newspaper. It is now made with soy ink. And so you use the dull pages; not the shiny ones. They may have other chemicals in them you don't want in your soil, but the dull newspaper pages, several layers, five, six layers, lay it down in the fall. I put mulch over it, bark mulch over the top, leaf mulch, whatever I could find and then let it sit. And by spring, you have smothered those weeds and you can plant into it.

Farmer Fred  

And you've improved the soil as well. 

Debbie Flower    

Right. Correct. 

Farmer Fred    

Another thing to watch in that first year before you plant is, where does the water go? Especially when after it rains? Are there muddy areas that seem to persist for days after a storm? Those areas should probably get marked off. It could be as simple as taking a t-post or a stake and just stick it in that perennial muddy area. Most plants that are desirable, don't like muddy soil. So in those areas you may want to consider raised beds or planting in pots.

Debbie Flower    

Absolutely, I have a spot like that in this yard. And I put the vegetable garden, the raised bed, near there, covering part of that wet spot. Part of it I just don't use in the winter when we get our rains here in California.

Farmer Fred    

For that person starting a garden for the first time I would kind of shy away from recommending starting from seed unless the plant typically grows from seed. Just go to the nursery and get yourself a six pack, a four pack, a gallon plant, a five or a 15 gallon containerized plant. But what are some easy, confidence-building plants to put in as far as annuals, perennials and vegetables go?

Debbie Flower    

Well, annuals are plants that complete their lifecycle in one year. Often it's a portion of one year, let's say from spring through summer, and it goes to seed and dies in the fall. Spring is a great time to garden, especially with kids. And with kids, big seeds are very desirable because they can handle them well. And they can see the results of those plants that come up quickly. And so sunflowers are one wonderful, easy to start plant. Zinnias are another one that's easy to start from seed but they are not such big seeds, though. There are beans that can you can grow from seeds, they can be bush beans, that you're going to get an edible crop from, or they can be a vining scarlet runner bean, which does give an edible crop but I often grow it just for the beautiful red flowers that it produces. And I did some research on it back when my kids were in a daycare and found that at that time, in the late 80s, the research said that a kid could eat the entire plant and not get sick. So it's a great thing to have around little ones as well.

Farmer Fred   

Perennials are plants that you can expect to last for more than a year.

Debbie Flower   

Right. And then the trick I think about perennials is planting them at the right time. Nurseries will have them when they're in flower and I would prefer to buy them when they're not in flower and put them in the ground or in a pot in the fall. Some are perennials that bloom in the fall, but there are a lot of perennials that bloom in the spring and the summer and I would prefer to plant them when they're out of flower. They root better that way.

Farmer Fred    

When it comes to planting vegetables, some of the easier ones to grow include greens, such as lettuce, but the trick with things like lettuce is, what climate do you live in? If you live in a hot climate, those lettuce and some spinach varieties and other leafy greens that you may enjoy do best in the cool season, planted between September and February-March. If it's the warm season, you could switch to some other heat loving plants that are easy to grow, perhaps tomatoes or peppers.

Debbie Flower   

Right. Cucumbers are also pretty easy to grow from seed, and they are another big seed. But all of these things we're talking about need that six to eight hours of sun. Except maybe the greens, if you have no bright sun, or if the spots of bright sun move around. A couple things to consider. One is put the plants in a pot that has wheels and move it around from sunny space to sunny space. That's a whole lot of labor, by the way. The other is to grow things in part shade where you eat the leaves, like the lettuce and greens.

Farmer Fred   

How do you feel about mulch?

Debbie Flower 

You can see my yard is full of mulch. That's one of the reasons I can water so infrequently is I have organic mulch on top of this soil. And that breaks down with the help of naturally existing organisms and then what's left is the broken-down organic matter which holds water in the soil. And that helps the plants to have an evenly-watered soil, even though I'm only applying it once every two weeks or so. The roots are getting it over a much longer period of time. I wouldn't use the same arborist mulch in my vegetable garden that I would use on my landscape. But you can buy compost, or you can make your own compost, something that is a little finer, not so much wood in the product.

Farmer Fred   

Exactly. Save the arborist clippings for your hardwood plants, and then use worm castings or compost for your soft bodied plants.  The one thing we haven't talked about, and this should be part of your first garden checklist is: how much time are you willing to devote to taking care of the garden? Because just like raising a family, it's all about maintenance.

Debbie Flower   

Yes, it really is. I like to walk my landscape every day. And I have paths. You need to set up paths when you create a garden, so that you can get around and check on things. And then the number one thing I do, is weed. But often I need to prune something that's growing out into the path. Look for the pests, see what's flowering, see what needs to be harvested, you can't know what to do in the garden if you don't visit it on a regular basis.

Farmer Fred  

Smart gardeners have multiple pairs of pruning shares that they they hide throughout the garden, in  old mailboxes or some sort of structure to protect them from the elements, which isn't a bad idea. Because as you learn to enjoy gardening, you will always have a pair of pruning shears with you.

Debbie Flower    

Yes, I have them in my car, I have them in the kitchen, I have them in the garage. And I often have one in my back pocket.

Farmer Fred    

One thing you notice as you become familiar with your garden: you're going to find out when your plant is healthy and when it's not healthy, just by observing. That's something you've said a lot on this podcast: get out there and spend time with your plants.

Debbie Flower   

That's right, get to know them, enjoy them, and visit them. So you know when things are starting to go wrong, it's so much easier to control a problem at the beginning when it starts to happen, rather than waiting until it gets much bigger. And the number one example of that is weeds. Weeds are much easier to control when they're small. But if you let them flower and produce seed, then you've just increased the problem.

Farmer Fred   

Attack weeds early. And by the way, one helpful hint that a lot of experienced gardeners follow is they realize while they're having their morning coffee, oh, I need to get out in the yard and do such and such today. Write it down, put it in your pocket. Because when you go outside, you're going to find other things to do first. And before you know it, four hours have gone by and you're going to ask yourself, "Why did I come out here originally?" 

Debbie Flower    

That is so true. My filing system is my pants pockets. I do write them down, the chores that I think need to be done. I've been known to wake up in the middle of the night and write things down. Because, for whatever reason, it's going through my head. So yes, you do. It's like the jokes about people going into one room to do something, and never doing it, because they find something else to do. The garden is just the same way.

Farmer Fred  

We'll have this checklist on the "Beyond the Basics" newsletter that comes out on Friday so you can look for it there. I hope you weren't trying to take notes and drive and listen, all at the same time. So again, it'll be part of the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred "Beyond the Basics" newsletter coming out this Friday, your first garden checklist. Debbie Flower, great to be in your garden, thank you.

Debbie Flower   

I'm glad you're enjoying it. My pleasure.

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Reusing Old Potting Soil (originally aired in Episode 172)

Farmer Fred

Debbie Flower says don’t toss out that old potting soil that you have sitting around in containers that perhaps have the remnants of last year’s summer annuals. There’s a way to reinvigorate that potting soil so that it is as good as new. You’re listening to Part 3 of our four part series, 2022’s Greatest Garden Hits. It’s the most downloaded segments of the last twelve months, here on the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast.

We like to have Debbie Flower drop by when we answer your garden questions, and just talk gardening in general here in the abutilon jungle. Debbie, it's that time of year or and people are going to go out they're going to get plants, they're going to get seed. And they may be buying soil. But before they buy soil, they may take a look around their yard and they see all these pots with no plants in them, but they're full of soil. There might be nurseries that might say, "Oh, you don't want to use that. You need to buy our new soil." But that old soil that you have, I guess it really depends what's in it and what it is, right and what it needs. Right? And can it be reused?

Debbie Flower  

Yes, I reuse potting soil all the time, I have many instances where I look around and there are pots with dead things in them. As I said to my cousin, I still kill plants, I just know how to do the autopsy. I typically know or have an idea of what killed them as well. I take out the what is left of the plant, there's often a decent root system, I'll bang it around on my potting bench and get off as much of the container media as I can from those roots. And notice I say container media. This is not field soil.  I use kitty litter boxes that I bought specifically for the purpose of mixing media. And I dump it in there, mix it up with whatever else I have and reuse it. I very often add a rock component to that reusable media and some new bagged container media container media is not soil, it is organic matter. Plus some typically rock components. Peat Moss, coir or compost are usually the organic matter. And then the rock components are perlite, vermiculite, pumice, sand, something like that. And it's often one part of the organic matter to two parts of the sand component. And the reason for that is that over time the organic component breaks down. And as it breaks down, the particles get smaller. And the space between the particles where the air and water hang out in a container gets smaller and the plant starts to suffer. So a plant has died in the container media. It's been in there some period of time and a container, the organic component of that container media has broken down. So the pore spaces, the open spaces between the components of container media have gotten too small, maybe or they've definitely gotten smaller, they may have gotten too small for roots to actively live in there. So I want to fix that. That's one thing I want to fix, is particle size. So I do that by adding some new media from a bag and some usually more rock components. Mix them together, get the texture I do very much by feel and I don't have recipes, and then I'll reuse them. I will never reuse media to start seeds in. To start seeds, you want things sterile. You want the pots to be absolutely clean and you want the media to be unused. So I'm not using it for that but I will move my houseplants up to a bigger size or my seedlings that I started In six packs all the way up to four inch pots, something like that, using this reused media. The other thing that I need to worry about with the media is the salt component. Salt is fertilizer. Fertilizer has to be in the salt form for the plant to be able to take it up. It has to be able to dissolve in water and move to the plants roots and enter the plants roots. And so that's the salt form. And if there's too much of that in there, the pH of the soil will go up, so the soil will be too alkaline. When that happens, then nutrients that are in the soil become unavailable to the plant. The easiest way to do that is just flush the the media with freshwater for several minutes and allow it to come out through the drain holes of the pot. But yes, I absolutely reuse media frequently.

Farmer Fred  

Are you open for questions? 

Debbie Flower 

Yes, sir. 

Farmer Fred    

Oh, good. To your last point there. One thing I do is, I get myself a five gallon bucket. And I will take that old container mix and put it in the bucket because usually peat moss is part of that. It is hard to rewet. So in put in a bucket with no drain holes, I will put that soil mix and then fill the bucket with water and then go do something else. When I come back several hours later, that moisture has basically permeated throughout that entire body of that potting soil. And I then transfer the potting soil to large plastic containers with drain holes and let the whole thing drain.  And then I can get in there with my hands and grab the soil  and refill whatever pot I was going to do it knowing that it's thoroughly moist.

Debbie Flower  

Yes, potting soil can dry out to beyond rewetting easily. And so you're right you have to soak it or you can use if you're anxious, you can use warmer water and work with your hands and maybe just a drop, just to drop literally just a drop of dish soap. And you want to be soap it really would be better to use castile soap or ivory soap, not detergent. But that helps breaks down the surface tension of water and allows it to permeate the particles of the container media more easily. But I always have my soil moist before from top to bottom before I put it in a container.

Farmer Fred   

Good idea. Questions?  You mentioned that with that old compressed potting soil, you will add some new media and some sort of rock component. Could you be more specific?

Debbie Flower   

I usually have a bag of something, it could be peat moss, just a bag of peat moss could be a bag of coir. Milled coir. It could be a bag of container media that was sold to me as container media just hanging around. I always make a point of having some and then I prefer pumice actually in my containers. It's heavier for a rock component for the rock component. Yes, I prefer it over perlite. perlite isn't also a rock component. It is physically smaller than most pumice, but it very, very, very dusty. And I have had bad reactions to it. That dust can get down in my throat and I think it gets beyond my throat and I'll be miserable for a couple of days because I inhaled it. I do have masks, though.

Farmer Fred   

If you don't I see some on the street.

Debbie Flower  

Yes, they're they're everywhere these days. But it's a habit now and I've gotten out of it. I do keep a little perlite around, it's often good for starting seeds. And vermiculite is another one I like to have around. I use it to top media, to cover seeds because it holds moisture. It allows air in, it allows light in, so even if the seeds need light to germinate, but I use it for that but I don't put it in media as much because it is expanded Mica and Mica is a very shiny rock with many layers. So when it expands, it expands sort of like an accordion. And it's easy to crush. So it loses some of its better characteristics. Like it gets smaller if you crush it by handling. So another one that I just haven't found a good source, I have to be honest, and say I haven't looked very hard, but it is sand. Builders sand if you bought it at the big box store, horticultural sand if you bought it in a horticultural environment. It is usable as the rock component. It has been sized sand, and comes in a whole variety of sizes. So if you went to the beach and picked up sand or you went to the quarry and picked up sand, the sand would be in all different sizes. And when you put that in the together in a container, the little pieces fall between the big pieces and you don't have good pore space in that media. So builder sand and horticultural sand have been sized they also have been washed. Sand is usually in a place where an ocean used to be. And so oceans have salt in them and you don't want that salt. So it's been washed. It's been sized and for those reasons it's used. It's a good choice for the rock component in media.

Farmer Fred  

Do you have any problems with using bagged compost as part of the hamburger helper mix, that of reusing of potting soil?

Debbie Flower    

I have not. There are no laws I'm aware of that regulate what is in a bag when you buy a bag of container media. So unlike a pesticide, what's in that  bottle or box had better be what's in that bottle or box, or you've broken the law. There's nothing like that for bagged goods. However, there are companies that make good products, they want to make good products, they sell good products, other people recommend their good products and so they are consistent just by that pressure from their buyers. And so when I go to buy a bagged good, I will flip the bag over and it will tell you the components in the bag. And if there's compost in it, and it's a brand that I have faith in, then I have no problem with that.

Farmer Fred  

Nice tap dancing, Ginger. But what is it about compost that makes you leery of using it as an ingredient in rehabbing potting soil?

Debbie Flower   

It could be high in salts. Mushroom compost is one of those that could be high in salts. It could contain Redwood finds, if I'm trying to start seeds, Redwood inhibits that process. Or it could have nothing in it, nothing desirable, because compost, depending on how it's been made, will lose all of its nitrogen in the process. And it's just an organic matter and  that can be okay. You just need to know that peat moss is just an organic matter, but it's a known organic matter with a certain pH. Coir is the same way although its processing has gotten better. When it first came on the market, it has some pH issues but that has gotten better.

Farmer Fred  

What are your thoughts about using worm castings in a soil mix?

Debbie Flower   

Often, when you read the list of what's in a container media bag there may be worm castings in there. There may be composted chicken manure in there. Worm castings I'm fine with. Chicken manure makes me a little bit more leery, especially for starting seeds, because it tends can be very high in nitrogen which can burn plants and plant roots.

Farmer Fred    

And we usually think of that as a fertilizer anyway.

Debbie Flower    

Yes, yeah, a fertilizer instead, Yes.

Farmer Fred   

Which brings up an interesting question. You mentioned that one of the big problems with reusing old potting soil is the buildup of salts, and you mentioned fertilizer, and I think most people that will listen to the show are familiar with the buildup of salts due to synthetic fertilizers. What about organic fertilizers? Can they cause a salt buildup?

Debbie Flower    

Absolutely, they can, especially if they're manures. Yes.

Farmer Fred    

What about liquefied versions, like a fish emulsion?

Debbie Flower   

You want to look at the analysis. So fertilizers have numbers, three numbers, by law, they have to have three numbers on the label. And the numbers can be as low as well, they can be zero, they can be point one, or anything above. Some fertilizers can be 30, as high as 30. If you're fertilizing an existing plant, you don't need those 30's. That's very high, that can burn the plant. 20 can burn the plant. We're looking at single digits or below, what would be the analysis. So the three numbers are percent nitrogen and phosphorus,  and percent potash.

Farmer Fred   

Well, okay, so you go for something that has single digits, like a 5-5-5, or an 8-4-1 or whatever, some of those could be manures.

Debbie Flower    

Some of those could be manures. But they have been diluted somehow, or washed and lost some of their powerful nitrogen, it's nitrogen that the manures contain.

Farmer Fred   

So there's nothing on a label of an organic fertilizer that would indicate that there is sodium in there.

Debbie Flower   

There may be. Some of them will list on the back, there's a analysis of the fertilizer that's in the container. And they have to tell you, nitrogen and then underneath that, it'll be soluble nitrogen and insoluble nitrogen. So the soluble nitrogen is available to the plant immediately. That number is very important. That's where you're going to get burned if you're going to get it. Insoluble nitrogen has to be broken down into that salt form, which is soluble by time, temperature, and micro organisms, and moisture. So the conditions of growing are what will determine how fast that happens. And if temperatures are good, and you got moisture and you've got healthy soil, that'll be fairly quickly, but the plant will also grow fairly quickly. So it's a nice symbiosis, sort of where the fertilizer breaks down and the plant grows fast enough to use it up. And so typically, you don't get burned from the insoluble nitrogen, then they'll say phosphoric acid and what the percentage of that is, and potash what the percentage of that is, and then they sometimes list other things, right? Calcium, iron, sulfur are three that are very commonly listed. Sometimes I have seen sodium. Sodium is a bad guy. If you live with a water treatment system in your house that takes the calcium out of your water, it's typically replaced with sodium, and that will kill plants really quickly. In houses that are set up that way you typically have a spigot outdoors that is not attached to the water treatment system. And that's the water you want to use for indoor and outdoor plants. One thing I will avoid buying in container media is mychorrazae. 

Farmer Fred   

Yeah, what the hell's that? 

Debbie Flower 

Mychorrazae is a relationship between fungus and plants. And the fungus needs the plant for sugar. And the plant benefits from the presence of the fungus. A fungus can can grow very quickly over large spans of soil or mulch, and permeate places smaller than plant roots can get into and bring it back to the plant. Typically it's phosphorus and water. It sounds wonderful, and it is wonderful. But there is no need unless we're reclaiming mining sites, which some people do. I did for a while part of my career, but gardeners in general do not need to inoculate containers or field soil with mycorrhizae. When mycorrhizae was first discovered, and promoted, fertilizer companies jumped on the bandwagon and said, "We're gonna put this in our bag of goods and raise the price. The price of bagged goods went up tremendously. The problem is that mychorrazae is very specific. The host plant will only react to certain ones and it will only react if the host plant is in need of the phosphorus. It will not grow unless it will benefit. Plants lose things out of their roots, liquid. And that liquid has some kind of chemical component. And if the chemical component is such that shows the plant is in need of phosphorus, that chemical component stimulates the mycorrhizae to grow. If you're applying a mycorrhizae to a healthy plant in a healthy soil environment, and there are no plant nutrient deficiencies, the microbes will never grow. It is a live organism. It is capable of going into dormancy. But these are not handled as live organisms in the bag, media world. They're just thrown in there and the bag sits wherever they sit. Warehouses, truck bodies, outdoors  at the garden center, whether the microbe is viable, is questionable. Is that the right one for your plant? That's questionable? And does your plant really need it? That's questionable. The thing is, it costs a lot of money.

Farmer Fred   

The other thing about mychorrazae is there's a territorial battle going on too. And if there are any surviving mycorrhizae in that box or bag that's been sitting in a parking lot or whatever, at a nursery, it's probably not live. But if there are any that alive, they're going to have competition because there's already mycorrhizae in the soil. So why not just feed your soil with mulch or organic products to build up their populations? Yes. And they're going to. That population is going to fluctuate depending on if anything's growing there.

Debbie Flower   

Yes, yes. Yes, it's the soil. And we're learning more and more about this all the time. The soil is alive. There's a lot of stuff in there, if you will, I mulch with arborist chips, and I go to plant something or, and I'll dig in there, and I'll flip it over and there's this mass of whiteness, that's mychorrazae. That's the fungus, that's the beneficial fungus. That's the good stuff. And so it's happening, I did not apply anything. And there is, I believe, some scientific evidence that shows that these microbes even get into container media.

Farmer Fred   

right. And we should point out to that, when we say mycorrhizae,  there is no critter in the ground named Mike. It's either a bacteria or a fungus. And  the mycorrhizae refers to the reaction that goes on to transfer nutrients to the plant roots. Right? That's another thing too, more and more people are doing, I think it's called regenerative gardening. It has a name now. And it talks about just leaving the roots of your old vegetable plants in the ground as a source of nutrients to continue that mycorrhizal activity.

Debbie Flower    

The no till movement. Yeah.

Farmer Fred   

No Till movement. Yes. But everybody needs a fancy new name. So now, regenerative gardening,

Debbie Flower   

Right. Well, that, I think, is a more positive spin on the name than no-till. It tells you what it's doing, it's not giving commands

Farmer Fred   

I tell you what if you want to go down that scenic bypass, right now, let's. Because that is one area that people do get into when they get into gardening. They like to buy stuff. And one of the things they might be considering buying, and it's a high ticket item, is a roto tiller. Right? And yeah, they're fun. By the way, if you do buy a roto tiller, make sure it's a Rear Tine roto tiller, not a front tine roto tiller, it's a lot easier on your back. But what you're doing when you till up the soil is you're destroying all those freeways and byways and passageways and everything that the the mycorrhizal activity needs to exist, including grinding earthworms,

Debbie Flower    

 There's an environment down there that has been created by all the live things, both large and small, in the soil. And it's like somebody coming in with a giant roto tiller and going over your house, and you would have to rebuild.

Farmer Fred    

Yeah, and it creates, I forget the term, it'll come to me when I'm done recording, I'm sure there's a term that what a rototiller does to the soil level below where it can reach, it basically seals it up. (Hardpan)

Debbie Flower   

Yes, because you break up soil. It forms what's called aggregates. And it's really the poop of the microorganisms that live in the soil that acts as the glue to glue soil particles together. If you have a clay soil, you actually have some of the best gardening soil you can have but it has to form aggregates before you can really garden in it, but it has great water holding ability, great nutrient holding ability and once it has formed aggregates, then it has also good drainage to form aggregates. You have to add the organic matter that the micro organisms eat, then they poop everything poops. And that glue holds that that poop acts as the glue to hold the clay particles together in irregular shapes. And so it increases the size of the clay allows for air penetration and water penetration.

Farmer Fred    

Basically that when you roto till you're basically sealing off those lower layers from getting air and water.

Debbie Flower    

Right, you break up those aggregates that have so wonderfully formed. you're back to the very, very tiny particles, the tiny particles move with water, and they flow down and create a layer of just tiny particles. And it's typically clay because that's the smallest particle in the soil. And that seals off the top part of the soil from the bottom part.

Farmer Fred   

If you need to spend 800 or $1,000 on a new garden toy, get a chipper-shredder. 

Debbie Flower    

Yeah, there you go. 

Farmer Fred   

You get a chipper-shredder and all these tree branches that you're pruning off yearly or your neighbors trees. Those chips, those shredded tree branches, make a great mulch. You don't incorporate it into the soil, it's layered on top, just lay it on top. And as that mulch breaks down, and it will, it's feeding the soil

Debbie Flower   

it is and it also changes the composition of the microorganisms that live in the soil to ones that discourage a lot of our herbaceous weeds. You will have weeds but they'll be easier to pull out. But you won't have near the population of weeds you would have had, had you used a different mulch or had you not put this down at all. 

Farmer Fred  

There are those who defend the use of roto tillers as a one time operation when starting a new garden. Good idea or bad idea?

Debbie Flower   

If I could get somebody to come in and do it for me, I would do it. Okay. The same with double digging. I double dug my vegetable bed the first time.

Farmer Fred   

 I think I'd rather roto till 

Debbie Flower    

Yes, exactly, exactly. Although rototillers can't go as steeply as a double dig does. So double digging takes off the top layer, puts it aside and then digs into the bottom layer. Good stuff, organic matter, typically. And then you take off the top layer from next door, move it over and and loosen up and add good stuff to any to the bottom layer. And you do that over the whole bed. Finally, removing the first top layer all the way to the other end of the bed, making putting it on top. But you just do that once.

Farmer Fred   

And mulch will take care of it for the rest of its life.

Debbie Flower    

That opens it all up. Then you put mulch on top. If you keep the soil protected with mulch on top, Forever After, it will never get tight again.

Farmer Fred    

And also by keeping those old roots of your old vegetable plants in the ground. That also helps create airspace.

Debbie Flower   

It's pretty amazing. They they create a pathway for water to get down into the soil. For instance,

Farmer Fred    

I forget where we started, but we gave out a lot of great information there.

Debbie Flower    

Yeah, we should go back and listen to the beginning.

Farmer Fred  

I'm sure it was wonderful. You have faith? 

Debbie Flower    

Yes, I do. I believe I was reusing old potting soil. Yes. 

Farmer Fred    

Wow, that was very scenic. Thank you. 

Dave Wilson Nursery

Farmer Fred

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Tips to Reduce Water Use in the Garden (originally aired in Episode 202)

Farmer Fred

Here in California, we are wondering if the drought is over after all the heavy rains of January. Quick answer: it’s not over.  Other parts of the country are going through unusual dry spells this winter. No matter where you live, water is not the dependable commodity it used to be. Just in case it’s dry this summer, there are steps gardeners can take now to help maintain soil moisture and use less water as a result. Debbie Flower has the tips. You’re listening to Part 3 of our four part series, 2022’s Greatest Garden Hits. It’s the most downloaded segments of the last twelve months, here on the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast.

Farmer Fred   

Debbie Flower is here, America's favorite retired college horticultural professor. Debbie, it's springtime, and a lot of articles are coming out about vegetable gardening in newspapers. The Los Angeles Times had an article in early spring, about how to keep your vegetable garden alive this summer in a mega-drought. And that's what we have here, not only in California, but it's throughout the Southwest, and even into the inner Mountain States as well. There's a serious lack of rainfall. And people need to conserve their water. Conservation measures seem to be getting more and more strict as the weather warms up.  And this Los Angeles Times article, which was, by the way, entitled, "we're in a mega drought, here's how to keep your veggie garden alive this summer" had some suggestions. Their most obvious one, of course, is one that we talk about  a lot, and that's using mulch. And mulch is a good thing. They had, though, some that seemed like there could be problems attached to them.  I'd like to talk about that because I have seen people do these two things. 

Debbie Flower    

I have seen professionals do these things when installing plants.

Farmer Fred    

One of the things they suggest was large PVC pipes to send water deep into the ground, perforated PVC pipes. This person drills holes in four-inch PVC pipes, and then buries them 18 to 20 inches deep, vertically, with the top protruding above the ground. So you pour water into the pipe with a hose and you're going to be watering your roots that way, and he says that you can grow tomatoes easily that way.

Debbie Flower   

There's a problem with that. 

Farmer Fred   

Yeah, there is a problem. There's all sorts of problems with that. First of all, digging  an 18 to 20 inch deep hole that is four inches in diameter. I'm not sure unless you've got a big enough auger.

Debbie Flower    

Yes, such as a fence post auger.

Farmer Fred    

18 to 20 inches. You'll need a two foot drill bit to do that. And it would have to be in soil that is compatible with going down two feet easily. Because these little augers and especially the drill mounted augers, they're not going to do it right.

Debbie Flower   

 Two feet is quite a distance. 

Farmer Fred    

 I've always advised that if you're going to be digging holes for planting or whatever, and you've got really poor soil, really hard clay soil, you want to bring in a guy that does it for a living. And usually their tool of choice is a two and a half to three foot diameter drill bit that is attached to the motor of their Jeep. Yeah, so they can get us some power. You need a lot of power, even the tractor mounted, PTO outlet drill bits are going to bounce up and down on clay soil. So you need something that has even more power than that. But anyway, okay, so let's say you do get these holes dug for the four inch PVC pipe with the holes. It doesn't specify   where the holes are or what the diameter of the holes are.

Debbie Flower   

 You don't need water down 20 inches deep. I  Understand that  people are always wanting to get their roots deep and to get them deeper is better than more shallow for temperature regulation so that the roots are in moderate temperatures. But a much easier way to do that is to put mulch on top, to prevent the sun from hitting the soil directly. The general rule of thumb is that 90% of the feeder roots, the roots on a plant that can absorb moisture and nutrients, are in the top six inches of the soil. It's very dependent on soil type. But that's a general rule of thumb, six inches. And the reason they're that shallow is yes, they need water. But they also need oxygen. Roots do a process called respiration, which is basically breathing. It's just a part of the plant, we won't go into respiration right now. But it happens in roots as well as in other parts of the plant and the roots have to have oxygen for that. If there is no oxygen, or a limited amount of oxygen, the roots will not go deeper. All of the roots in a tree that are feeder roots are in the top three feet of soil. Once you apply water, where does it go down, gravity pulls it down, you don't need to put it at 20 inches, you need to put it where you're gonna get most of your feeder roots some water. And that's the top six inches, and then from there, it will move down into soil. Now I know people will say I have found roots deeper than three feet. Yes, plants produce roots deeper than three feet, they produce roots for stability, anchor roots, but those roots don't have the ability to absorb nutrients and don't need oxygen. Therefore, they are actually parasitic roots, they're being fed by the parts of the plant that are able to make food. Roots in general are parasitic. But some of them have a job of absorbing that water and nutrients, which helps create that food, those stability roots are just down there holding the plant in the ground. And they're not doing any absorbing. 

Farmer Fred  

The problem with putting all your water in a four inch pipe is you're limiting the spread, the outward spread of that water, and roots are all around the tree. So are you going to put in eight pipes? With one pipe, you're just watering one portion of one side of the tree. You want an equal amount of roots on all sides of the tree. The easiest way to do that is with a drip emitter system or a micro sprayer system where you are literally watering a circle that goes out six feet or so around the tree.

Debbie Flower   

Roots go out an incredibly long distance away from the plant, the rule of thumb is they spread in all directions two and a half to three times the height of the plant. So if you have a three foot tall, and that's a short tomato plant, then the roots are gonna go four and a half to six feet away from the plant in all directions if conditions are right for root growth, and that gives them the most area to find nutrition and water. And it keeps the plant stable. If all the water is on one side roots are very opportunistic, they will grow where conditions are right for roots to grow. And so if the water is only on one side, you're only gonna have roots on one side.

Farmer Fred  

So basically, I wouldn't spend my time trying to drill 20 inch deep holes and sticking a PVC pipe in it. There's a lot easier ways to do it. What about their other suggestion about digging a five gallon nursery pot into your garden to send water deep down?

Debbie Flower  

That won't go as deep because a five gallon, or a number five grow pot, is about 15 inches tall. So you're only going 15 inches at most, it typically is about a foot in diameter. And there are typically drain holes on all sides, maybe four to six drain holes depending on the manufacturer of the pot. And so you're gonna get the water spread out a little better with that. If that's your only way to water, you're still not getting to those feeder roots that are in the top six inches of the soil.

Farmer Fred   

Because if you're just relying on the holes that are at the bottom of that five gallon container, water doesn't tend to come back up right?

Debbie Flower   

It does, incredibly slowly, like at a geological pace. Yeah, so don't count on that. Water goes down. The gardens of the native peoples in Arizona, Arizona is really, really dry. I'm talking about southern Arizona here and it's very hot for a long period of time. They relied on flood irrigation. So that puts the water right on the surface of the soil. So much so that their beds were created and it's still done in places. There's big pecan orchard down there that I visited when I worked for the University of Arizona in the plant sciences department and I still visit now and all those trees are in low spots so that the water they just flood the soil and let the water drain down. It's still done today.

Farmer Fred    

What about the doughnut system, the double levee system that some people use for flood irrigation around a tree? They will build  like a four inch, five inch levee in a circle, maybe six or seven or eight inches away from the trunk of the tree so you've got this you know little circle of dirt there and then  further out at the outer portion of the tree, which is called the drip line of the canopy of the tree, they build another circular wall, if you will, six or seven inches and then flood the area in between.

Debbie Flower  

That is for establishment irrigation.  I've read a PhD thesis that talked about this, when you first plant a container grown tree in the landscape or anything else that was grown in a container, it is in container media, which is primarily organic matter. That's not what you have in your yard, or most of us do not have that kind of soil in our landscape. So somehow, those roots have to transition from the container media into the field soil. So we cut the roots to hopefully establish new tips on the roots that will grow out, we rough up the edges of the inside of the hole, so the roots have someplace to grab on to. And then we plant and we "plant proud" because that container media is going to settle. And then right around the container media only is the first of what I call  a doughnut type of irrigation. So the inside of the doughnut, so the container media would be in the doughnut hole. Then you put another berm further out. When I did it, and I did, I established a whole field of shrubs this way. For my part of my thesis, we only went out another foot and put the second doughnut, the edge of the outside of the doughnut in so that there was a moat area in between the container soil that has the plant roots in it and is made up primarily organic matter. It dries out before field soil because the texture of the container soil is rougher than the texture of field soil. So you water the container soil only as much as is needed. And when I did it in a summer here at UC Davis in Davis, California, we had to water every day. And we applied only what that size container media would hold. It was a one gallon, and I think it was a liter of water that we applied to every plant. Then once a week, we watered (the entire area). So that water we put on the inside, kept that plant alive.

Debbie Flower    

Once a week we water inside the berms what would be the donut that wet the field soil enough so that the roots could move out, but not so much that it was too wet for the roots, so it displaced the oxygen. That is a legitimate system for establishing plants. But once winter comes number one, you'd knock down the berms here in California, because that's when we get when we get our water,  theoretically. And number two, roots will go way beyond the drip line. So you need to water for a stable tree, and you need to water way beyond the drip line.

Farmer Fred   

You mentioned two things that probably needs a bit of clarification, you said to to cut back the roots. If you're planting a new plant, how far back do you cut the roots?

Debbie Flower    

 I shouldn't have said just cut the roots, you want to score them. And if the plant has been well grown, you don't need to go more than a quarter of an inch in.

Farmer Fred    

You're talking about the root ball itself that's attached to that soil when you pop that plant out of the pot and the soil and plant are all together. That's when you migh see the roots going round and round on the outside.

Debbie Flower    

Right. With a woody plant, those round and round roots will eventually kill the plant. An herbaceous plant like a tomato, it's  not going to live long enough, the roots are not going to get Woody, it's not going to kill the plant. But it's an opportunity for you to create openings where behind your cut, new root tips will grow. And the root tips are the things that are going to absorb the water and nutrition.

Farmer Fred    

Alright, so basically you're just scraping your fingernails, right?

Debbie Flower    

Yeah, people talk about teasing the roots or scraping the roots, right.

Farmer Fred    

All right. Now you also use the term "plant proud".

Debbie Flower   

"Plant proud" means that the container soil should stick out of the field soil. From a little four inch pot, it might just be for half an inch. If you're planting a gallon, I'd say the container soil should stick out an inch, inch and a half. If you're going to planting from a number five, you're going to stick out several inches, three inches maybe, and then you mulch up to it so that if you're using the berm, the berm acts as the mulch up to it. But if you're not you mulch up to it so it doesn't dry out, but it will sink over time as it breaks down.

Farmer Fred    

One way to ascertain the correct amount is to put a shovel handle across that hole that you dug, and then put your plant in. Where does that top of that container mix lie in relation to that shovel handle? If you wanted an inch or two above that shovel handle, you'll probably have to lift the plant out, put some more soil at the bottom of the hole and then reset it. 

Debbie Flower    

It's a big problem if you dig your holes too deeply. My husband had a tendency to do that for quite a while. Then they become the low spot and when you irrigate or we get rain, it becomes a puddle around the base of the plant. You can introduce disease that way, you can drown the plant that way, or lots of organic matter blows in and eventually the plant ends up being buried too deeply.

Farmer Fred    

Husbands always get the blame.

Debbie Flower  

Oh, I make a lot of mistakes too.

Farmer Fred   

Yes, there is a drought  for many of us, but you can still have a garden. And in fact, in many areas here in California, the water agencies are going out of their way to say you got to keep the trees, you got to keep the trees. And even though you might be killing the lawn around the trees, with a lack of water, you got to make sure your trees get water.

Debbie Flower   

The trees don't need the same frequency of irrigation that the lawn does. And lawns can go brown and they can recover. I was super surprised when I moved west, and lawns were green all year round because I lived in a place where frost would kill lawn, so there was always a period of brown. It just didn't make sense to me. So yes, accept that aesthetic that you should have a brown lawn for a period of the year.

Farmer Fred   

Yeah, this isn't the episode to get into the future of lawns, but I don't see big lawns in our future.

Debbie Flower   

Right. And it seems to be more people seem to be accepting that fact.

Farmer Fred    

Yeah. Oh, and that's a battle. Okay, where were we? Mega-drought, there are ways to mitigate the effects of a lack of water falling from the sky. Basically, open up your wallet and pay more for water.

Debbie Flower   

Yeah, but water is surprisingly cheap.

Farmer Fred   

Yeah. And so is mulch. 

Debbie Flower    

Yes, yes. Free. In fact,

Farmer Fred    

Yeah. So consider that as part of your water saving efforts.  Debbie Flower. Thanks for saving us some water here.

Debbie Flower   

You're welcome, Fred.

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