295 Growing Pawpaws and Native Persimmons

Show Transcript

GB 295 Growing Pawpaws, Native Persimmons TRANSCRIPT

Farmer Fred

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by Smart Pots, the original lightweight, long lasting fabric plant container. It's made in the USA. Visit SmartPots.com slash Fred for more information and a special discount, that's SmartPots.com/Fred.

Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, you've come to the right spot.

Farmer Fred

The tasty fruits that we delve into today may not be familiar to you, especially if you live west of the Rocky Mountains. However, in the midwest, east and the south, pawpaws and native persimmons are a taste treat. You’ve probably never seen a pawpaw in a grocery store in the west; and yes, out here we are familiar with Japanese persimmons, but native American persimmons? Probably not. Master Gardener and international gardening expert Quentyn Young tells us about growing and pruning pawpaws and native persimmons throughout the United States.

From Dave Wilson Nursery, Phil Pursel says the best fruit, vine and berry deals are coming soon to a nursery near you. In the west, they are probably already there. We’re talking bare root fruit trees, vines, berries and more, available now as rather barren looking sticks that might be in small pots, ready for planting. And their price is at the lowest of the year. But, how do you plant and care for them? We’ll chat with Phil Pursel, he has the tips.

And our favorite retired college horticultural professor, Debbie Flower, has a warning. Are you thinking of applying a frost protectant spray to your cold-sensitive plants before temperatures drop below 32 degrees? She wants you to think about that before you do it, and offers some alternatives.

We’re podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory, it’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Let’s go!

GROWING and PRUNING PAWPAWS, NATIVE PERSIMMONS

Farmer Fred

We like to answer your garden questions here on the Garden Basics podcast. And, we get a question via a first time source, Substack, which is a newsletter program that a lot of people write on and also have podcasts on. And we get a question from Lisa Burnett who writes Brunette Gardens on Substack. She writes in and says, “Following a recommendation last year, I pruned my native persimmons and pawpaws to harvest height, treating them like orchard trees. That seemed like a colossally bad move. Judging by how they've responded, the pawpaw is dead, though it did send runners out all around the main. The persimmon looked dicey all winter, but came back this past year, though it's now sending shoots off the top because of being topped off. I feel terrible about this and wish I had not listened to the advice. Should I just let these trees heal themselves at this point? I have removed the broken branches from the persimmon, mainly from raccoons getting at the fruit, but have otherwise let it be. Thanks in advance for your input.” Thank you, Lisa, for that question. Let's bring in somebody who knows something about pawpaws and native persimmons. It would be Sacramento County Master Gardener Quentin young. He has lived (seemingly) everywhere. So he knows about a lot of interesting fruit varieties. And he's attempting to grow a lot of interesting fruit varieties as well, at the Fair Oaks Horticulture Center. Quentyn, one of your experiments at the Fair Oaks Horticulture Center in the orchard area is pawpaws. What exactly is a pawpaw?

Quentyn Young

So pawpaws are one of the last native custard apples that are native to the Eastern US. There's quite a few that are native to Central and South America. But the pawpaws are the last ones that are native to the Northeast of the United States.

Farmer Fred

And I guess they do fairly well along the entire east coast. But reading about it, it seems like they would do well here in California, too, because it says it's hardy from USDA zones five through 10.

Quentyn Young

They are. They may do well here. But  the trick, here, is their need for afternoon shade. They don't like our hot dry summers.

Farmer Fred

Yes, and that is the true weakness of the USDA zone map. Their Plant Hardiness maps primarily measure how cold it gets in particular zones.

Quentyn Young

Exactly. And they're usually found on the East Coast as almost always as an understory tree. Plus, we forget how humid it is on the east coast. So if you're gonna grow them here, definitely give them some afternoon shade. And they do like regular water and they do like really rich soil.

Farmer Fred

What is the eventual height of a pawpaw? Is it a tree or is it a shrub? Or is it a vine?

Quentyn Young

No, it is a tree. I guess you could call it a multi-trunked shrub, as well. They do form thickets, so they do send up suckers or runners. I would say they get to a height  in the eight to 10 foot range. They're going to give your garden a really nice tropical look. The fruit looks somewhat like a papaya or avocado. But the leaves do burn; and, ours burn at the Fair Oaks Horticulture Center every year.  I think I will have to eventually find a new location for it.

Farmer Fred

Sounds like they would like shade here.

Quentyn Young

Yeah, definitely PM shade.

Farmer Fred

Can you plant them from seed?

Quentyn Young

You can grow them from seed, but you do need two different two different varieties to get cross pollination. So we have two named varieties at the Hort Center, Shenandoah and Susquehanna. There's quite a few named varieties available on the retail market, you can buy seedling grown ones as well. And they tend to be true to their parent. So that's a good way to start them.

Farmer Fred

If they're true to their parent, then I guess that would mean that they might take from cuttings as well.

Quentyn Young

You could do cuttings, I'm not sure how well they root. And I've never seen pawpaws grafted. My understanding is grafting tends to weaken them, they tend to be better as seedling grown.

Farmer Fred

OK, but what about just taking some branches off, either hardwood, semi hardwood, or green wood, and starting them in an appropriate soil mix?

Quentyn Young

I would say definitely give them a shot. I would also try propagating them maybe a couple different ways: maybe air layering, maybe taking cuttings, that sort of thing.

Farmer Fred

The fruit of the pawpaw sounds very interesting. It's described as, first of all, being very nutritious, but with a strong aroma and a flavor that resembles banana, mango and pineapple. And it's a rather big piece of fruit, too. it's like a two pounds each.

Quentyn Young

Yeah, they are quite, quite beautiful. The flowers are really interesting, purple brown, they hang upside down. They remind me a bit of a bat for some reason. And they do not have a pleasant odor. And they primarily get pollinated by flies and other insects that are attracted to bad smells, let's say. But the fruit themselves are delicious. You'll never find them in the grocery store, they don't travel well. They tend to be ready, kind of when they come off the tree easily into your hand. So you almost have to always be there to check on them. They do have seeds in them. But the flavor, I think, is great. If you like mangoes, you'd love these.

Farmer Fred

I was reading about it at the emerging fruit crops section of UCANR (University of California Ag and Natural Resources Dept.), where they take a look at several interesting fruits. And it really sounds like this fruit, to me, as far as marketing goes and shipping goes, it resembles a mulberry, in that it doesn't ship very well. It doesn't last very long. So you really need to be on top of it to enjoy it.

Quentyn Young

Yeah, the skin is quite thin. So I can't imagine that would hold up for shipping. I can't imagine that you could pick them green, like you can with some fruits, and ship them over a long distance. I think it's one of those things where if you're lucky that somebody near you grows one, or has  an orchard. My understanding is they have a commercial orchard at Cornell University, they do a lot of experimenting with. But if you can’t  find one, at a farmers market on the East Coast, for example, I'd recommend you try growing one yourself.

Farmer Fred

It's a rather soft fruit. So I guess what you spoon it out to eat it?

Quentyn Young

Yes, you can spoon it out. Yeah, that's how I've done it here and the seeds are quite large,  they remind me of  a large kidney bean.

Farmer Fred

At Kentucky State University, they evaluated some of the cultivars that have come out over the years. And they recommend the NC-1, Overleese, Potomac, Shenandoah, Sunflowers, Susquehanna, and Wabash.

Quentyn Young

All of those sound familiar. You can usually find quite a few retail growers if you can't find them at your local nursery. There's a few retail growers up in Washington and Oregon who ship down here who do grow paw paws. And like I said, we have the Susquehanna and the Shenandoah at the Fair Oaks Horticulture Center.

Farmer Fred

Have you harvested fruit from them?

Quentyn Young

We have, yes. But it's one of those things. You've got to be there when they're ready. And again, there's not a lot of fruit on them. And we have a problem in Sacramento with squirrels, if you're not on top of them. The squirrels will get them.

Farmer Fred

Yeah, I was reading about it at Kentucky State University. And they talk about a typical pawpaw tree or shrub will produce about 20 pounds of fruit per tree, per year. And if the fruit weighs two pounds each, that's only 10 pieces of fruit.

Quentyn Young

Yeah, not a lot of fruit. And again, you have to be there when it's ready. The three main criteria to meet include afternoon shade and rich soil, so definitely add an annual circle of compost. And, they do like regular water. They are not a drought tolerant fruit tree.

Farmer Fred

One thing they did mention in the literature I was reading, is that because they tend to soften so quickly, they might only last on the shelf for five to seven days. But if you put them in a refrigerator that has the thermostat set to about 39-40 degrees or so, it can be stored for about three weeks in the refrigerator and maintain good eating quality.

Quentyn Young

I can see that. That would make sense to me in my understanding. That's also how you're going to stratify the seeds, if you want to try to grow them. Keep them in the fridge, for I think, approximately 120 days. Don't put them in the freezer, just keep them in the fridge.

Farmer Fred

Let's talk about pruning, which was Lisa's question. She thinks she pruned it back way too far. How do you prune the pawpaw?

Quentyn Young

We just shaped them, gently, in the same way we would a citrus tree. We cut off any dead wood. When you were reading her question, she said she cut them off at “harvest height”. So my question is, what is that? Two feet? Six feet? And then my next question - and we get this question a lot at the Hort Center - “I have an established tree, do I prune it the same way as when we plant a bare root  fruit tree, by cutting it off at knee height?”  People think you could do that to an established fruit tree. But you can't. So when she says she cuts it off at harvest height, I'm curious as to what height she cut them off. But we don't do drastic pruning on ours at all.

Farmer Fred

When is the best time to prune a pawpaw?

Quentyn Young

We do most of our shaping kind of like we do most of our summer pruning at the Hort Center. However, we shape it usually in the spring, not the summer, because it's susceptible to the heat. We don't really want to expose too much of it to the full sun.

Farmer Fred

As she mentioned in her question, it did send runners out, all along the main. Does that mean that there might be new trees popping up?

Quentyn Young

Yeah, when she says runner, so I'm wondering if she means suckers? Or is she saying that it's sprouting along the main trunk? So either one of those things to me would be a good sign.

Farmer Fred

It depends how many pawpaws you want. But I would keep one. How far apart would you space planting pawpaws?

Quentyn Young

I would say maybe a couple of feet because they naturally do form a thicket. So I wouldn't worry about them. Let's say if they were a couple inches apart, I would thin them. That might be also an interesting way to see if you can get all of those suckers to root and then cut them from the parent tree. Then maybe move them a few feet over.

Farmer Fred

I noticed that Stark Brothers Nursery sort of agrees with what you're saying. They talk about how light pruning is a good technique for pawpaws. And they say the best time to prune is late winter or early spring when the tree is dormant. And corrective pruning consists of removing broken, interfering, dead, or diseased branches.

Quentyn Young

Exactly. I don't think this is a tree that has had a long history of being hybridized or cultivated.  It's something that would have been cultivated in the wild. So I don't think it's something that would be recommended in the same way that you might prune an apple or pear that's had, let's say, thousands of years of domestication. I think it's a little bit different than that.

Farmer Fred

Especially since pawpaw fruit is produced on the new growth. Annual pruning, a light pruning, would stimulate that new growth on older trees.

Quentyn Young

Yeah, depending on how old they are and what kind of shape they're in.

Farmer Fred

It sounds like if some enterprising young farmers decided to grow pawpaws, it sounds like it would be a great fruit for a farmers market, to perhaps get people to get the

“pawpaw bug “, if you will.

Quentyn Young

Yes. And I think it's one of those things. You have to give North Americans a taste.  In Central America, South America, everybody's very familiar with custard apples. They're really delicious. There, you can get custard apple drinks, custard apple ice cream, custard apple-flavored anything. But in  North America, when you say “custard apple”, most people just look at you with a very confused face. And they don't really know where to go with that when you say, I”’d like you to taste one”. So if you had samples, I think that would be a great way to get people roped in.

Farmer Fred

Yes, the pawpaw. Possibly if you deal with a local nursery this time of year you might be able to special order some pawpaw plants.

Quentyn Young

And then, like I said, there's quite a few nurseries I know of -  at least two or three retail nurseries - that do mail order. They are in Oregon and Washington. You could get pawpaws from them, depending on what they have in stock.

Farmer Fred

It has a long history, it goes back to 1541. The Spanish explorer Hernando DeSoto - and didn't we love the DeSoto as a Chrysler product? - he reported that Native Americans growing and eating pawpaws could be found in the Mississippi Valley. Native Americans also use the bark of pawpaw trees to make fishing nets. Daniel Boone and Mark Twain are reported to have been pawpaw fans, as well. So it has a long history of populariity among the knowledgeable.

Quentyn Young

Yeah, and it would probably have an even longer history with indigenous people in North America, correct?

Farmer Fred

Yeah. So the appeal of the pawpaw could be growing if you get a chance to taste it and those of you that like to experiment with new plants, the pawpaw might be something to try, especially since it can theoretically grow in USDA zones five through 10…as far as cold hardiness goes. Butas you found out here in rather warm Sacramento County (USDA Zone 9), it probably doesn't like temperatures over 90, especially in the full sun. So afternoon shade is definitely a requirement here. I am amused at the pollinator for pawpaws. It does need a pollinator. And as far as an insect to pollinate the plant, the primary pollinator for pawpaws are flies.

Quentyn Young

Yeah, it's a really interesting, very unusual, upside-down looking flower. When I first see the petals -  I'm not even sure if they're true petals - it reminds me of the corpse flower. It has that same kind of bluish purple, unhealthy look, with  a not very pleasant odor. But the first thing I thought of when I smelled it is: “Oh, this must be attracting flies and yellowjackets.”Anything that's attracted to rotting meat would want to find this flower.

Farmer Fred

I see the University of Kentucky recommends that if you want to commercially plant pawpaws, the recommended density is 295 pawpaw trees per acre. That's a heck of a lot of pawpaw trees!

Quentyn Young

Yeah, that's like a thicket. Yeah, it's like I said, it's not something that's really been cultivated, for centuries. I think you're kind of starting from scratch and you're really learning as you go along, how to develop a pawpaw orchard.

Farmer Fred

And again, pruning it would be light.  All right. The other part of Lisa's question: she was having problems pruning her native persimmon tree, not to be confused with the Japanese persimmon, which is one of my favorite fruit trees to grow that we're harvesting this time of the year. But the native persimmon tree is sort of akin to the astringent Japanese persimmon, in that you need to let the fruits get soft enough before you eat it.

Quentyn Young

Yeah, you can soften it off the tree, or you can wait for frost. But the longer you keep them on the tree, the more chance somebody's gonna take them: squirrels, raccoons, things like that. But you do have to let them get soft before you can use them.

Farmer Fred

Lisa says “the persimmon looked dicey all winter, but came back this year, though it's now sending shoots off the top because of being topped off.” There you go. Another vote for pruning by making thinning cuts, not heading cuts.

Quentyn Young

So again, my question is: where did you cut it off? How thick was the trunk? We have established Japanese persimmons at the Hort Center. Two different varieties. The Fuyu,  which is the crunchy apple type. And the Hachiya, which is the acorn-shaped one. Again, those are the Japanese persimmons. We do light heading cuts. Most of our thinning cuts believe it or not, we do kind of towards the end of the summer, when they've sent up quite a few arching branches. We will prune them back because we want to keep them at around eight to 10 feet tall. We kind of run the risk, a little bit, of exposing some of the wood to sunburn. But we specifically grow those two persimmons on the southern side of the large sycamore trees at the Hort Center, to give them afternoon shade.

Farmer Fred

In my experience with Japanese persimmons, they do respond well to pruning although there are some sources that say about the American persimmon, the native persimmon, that it does not tolerate heavy pruning very well.

Quentyn Young

I can see that, because that's another one that has not been domesticated. That's another understory tree. And like you said, you need a male and a female. So I can imagine them being sort of scattered, kind of out in the woods, growing without a lot of attention. Not needing a lot of pruning, but probably not wanting a lot of pruning it.

Farmer Fred

Persimmon Trees are tough trees and they will probably bounce back, as Lisa is finding out. The problem, I would think, with native persimmon trees is fruit production. Because it can be widely variable, from small, to a good sized piece of fruit, to no fruit whatsoever.

Quentyn Young

Yeah. And then like you said, you do need a male and the female, unlike the Japanese persimmon so I'm wondering what she has in her orchard for production of those two types.

Farmer Fred

Yes, one would hope that there are two varieties within pollination distance of each other to do that. You noted that she removed the broken branches from the persimmon tree, mainly to keep raccoons from getting at the fruit. And that’s another good reason to keep a tree, a fruit-bearing tree, no taller than you could reach.

Quentyn Young

Yes. And we do prop up our branches at the Hort Center occasionally when the fruit does get too heavy.

Farmer Fred

Native persimmons. I don't know if I would recommend native persimmons or not. But if you have them, well, you know that they can be a wild tree and can get pretty tall, 60 feet in some instances.

Quentyn Young

And I've never seen them really offered by any grower here on the West Coast.

Farmer Fred

That would indicate maybe it doesn't have heat tolerance here.

Quentyn Young

Yes, that's another reason. You're going to have that as an understory tree, they're going to have to stay fairly small. If you need both -  male and the female - I think now  your problems have sort of doubled in terms of how you're going to place them. And I would recommend for the West Coast gardener to stick with Asian persimmons.

Farmer Fred

I concur wholeheartedly on that. But if you have  native persimmons on your property, then take care of them. And they'll have that bright orange fruit that is common with both the Japanese and the American persimmons.

Quentyn Young

Yes, easy to see in the fall. That's the one good thing about being able to find them.

Farmer Fred

Plus, they are winter hardy down to USDA zone four, and they can tolerate winter temperatures to 25 below zero.

Quentyn Young

Yeah, anything on the East Coast. I always say it's not the winters that's the problem here. It's the summers.

Farmer Fred

Yes. And consider the soil too. Our soils tend to run slightly to a lot Alkaline. Whereas on the East Coast, where there's a lot of acidic soils, the native persimmon tree prefers a slightly acidic soil.

Quentyn Young

Yeah. And then we also forget too, on the East Coast, it is much more humid in the summer, and they get usually regular summer rains, which we'd never get.

Farmer Fred

Penn State University says that American persimmons are slow growing and seedling trees may take four to nine years before bearing fruit. So be patient.

Quentyn Young

I can see that. I can see that if they're growing in the wild, they're preserving their energy for just growth, not for production.

Farmer Fred

And Penn State also says you can train them into a hedge.

Quentyn Young

That's very interesting. I hadn’t thought of that.

Farmer Fred

Well, that's something to think about if you want them. Now, speaking of growing unusual fruit, you have an interesting job. As a horticulturist, you're a Master Gardener. You have worked for years and years at retail nurseries. But now, you're doing something a little bit different. And it's very intriguing.

Quentyn Young

Right now, I work for an international nonprofit that works for primarily resettling and placing refugees and asylum seekers. And my specific program has to do with community gardening and food security, and food access.

Farmer Fred

And I would think if you're dealing with an international population, you're probably trying to be persuaded to grow some crops you've never heard of.

Quentyn Young

Yes. And part of the benefit or the joy of my position is we allow the immigrants and refugee and asylum seekers themselves to grow whatever it is that they need to either sell at our markets, or to sell at local markets that also have people  from different nations who are looking for specific things, they can't find it regular grocery stores. And they can also grow those for themselves as well.

Farmer Fred

Is there an internet site where people can get more information?

Quentyn Young

I have nothing that would give detailed information about what we grow. But we do have a farm stand every Saturday in West Sacramento, at our farm stand, and it is from 11 to three every Saturday. It is let me get to the address because you caught me off guard.

Farmer Fred

Take your time.

Quentyn Young

So the farm is in West Sacramento (CA). It's 491 Regatta Lane, it's off of Lighthouse Drive. And like I said, it's from 11 to three every Saturday. Believe it or not, we still have some really great tomatoes. Everything that we grow there is grown either by us or our immigrant and refugee farmers. And it's a really great place to see some unusual vegetables or just to support your local community.

Farmer Fred

And what are some of the unusual foods one might find there?

Quentyn Young

So this time of year, because it's sort of winding down from summer, we have a plant that's called Gandana. Some people call it Afghan chives. It is probably our number one seller. Botanically it's a leek, but it's used a lot in Afghan cuisine. We just got back from a conference where the 12 different New Roots programs all got together. And it's amazing. We have quite a few plots of Gandana at some of the other growers, let's say in Montana or South South Dakota. We're really having a hard time I'm sourcing this vegetable. We also have bottle gourds that's called Opo by a lot of people. We have bitter melon amaranth. So a lot of things that you might not see the regular grocery store, including these really specific Nepali hot chili peppers. And again, these are grown by immigrant farmers. These are plants that they're used to, and they grow them, both to sell at the market and also to sell to local markets as well.

Farmer Fred

It sounds like if somebody wants to expand their culinary world, it would be to head to that farmers market.

Quentyn Young

It would be, Yeah. And like I said, the produce is always changing. We're getting ready for winter. So we're planting peas, a lot of leafy greens, a lot of root vegetables, but on average, there might be at probably at least 50 different vegetables that we're going to have at any certain time. We have sugarcane, too. It's a pretty inclusive group of vegetables that we grow there.

Farmer Fred

All right, we'll have a link that has will have that farm stand location in the show notes. We learned a lot about pruning native persimmons and pawpaw trees. Something to expand your horticultural horizons, with Master Gardener Quentyn Young, thanks so much for helping us answer that garden question from Lisa.

Quentyn Young

Thanks for having me on, Fred.

Farmer Fred

Master Gardener Quentyn Young works as an advisor and instructor at New Roots Farm in West Sacramento, California. It’s part of the New Roots Program of the International Rescue Committee, providing refugees and immigrants the opportunity to learn about the business of agriculture in the United States, as well as a place to grow and sell the foods of their native lands. For more information, do an Internet search for New Roots Farm Sacramento. Or, visit rescue dot org and type “new roots farm” in the search box at the top of that page.

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Farmer Fred

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PLANTING BARE ROOT FRUIT TREES

Farmer Fred

Santa is coming early to nurseries in California and soon will be arriving at nurseries throughout the United States as the weather warms up back East and in the Midwest. You're going to see more and more fruit trees, berries, nuts, vines, plenty of edible crops for you to be planting in your garden. And as I said, California gardeners have sort of a head start on it right now as Dave Wilson Nursery is delivering vines and berries and a few fruit and nut varieties to California nurseries. What's in? What's good? Let's find out. We're talking