407 Low Water Vegetables

Show Transcript

407 PODCAST TRANSCRIPT low water Vegs

Farmer Fred:

[0:01] From the Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon jungle in suburban purgatory, welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. Let's go.

Farmer Fred:

[0:15] Today I'm interviewed by garden podcast host and horticulturist Marlene Simon, the plant lady, and the person behind the podcast, The Flower Power Garden Hour. Along with her co-host Bruce Ritter, we chatted last week on her podcast about the best vegetables to plant during a prolonged drought, along with tips to make your garden soil better at maintaining and using what little water you might have in a drought. Now, she's allowed me to repurpose this chat from her podcast here. She got the idea for the interview after reading my conversation with garden writer Debbie Arrington about water-saving vegetables that appeared in the Be Water Smart newsletter. Marlene and Bruce are responsible for maintaining the UC Davis Botanical Conservatory. It's home to a diverse collection of over 4,000 plant species from around the world, providing a unique space for education, research, and conservation. Now, in her spare time, when she isn't hiking across the Sierra Nevada Mountains or repurposing found items in her garden or tending to her cat collection (really!), she offers local TV garden advice on weekends, as well. Anyway, I hope you enjoy our conversation here.

Marlene Simon:

[1:30] With me is everyone's favorite radio, TV, and I guess podcast, now you've moved on to podcasting, is Farmer Fred Hoffman of the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred. And thanks, Fred, for being on.

Farmer Fred:

[1:46] My TV career was real, real short.

Marlene Simon:

[1:49] Hey, go with it, right? So thanks for being on. And recently you were interviewed for BeWaterSmart.info about how to garden, vegetable gardening more specifically, and save water. Because most people, you know, they're switching out their lawns to natives or at least Mediterranean, and we're all, you know, worried about saving water. And then vegetables sort of get, well, we just won't talk about that. We'll just grow vegetables with water. And I think a lot of times it's because we're, you know, harvesting the food. So there's a trade-off there. But that doesn't have to be the case, right? You don't have to waste a lot of water doing vegetable gardening, correct?

Farmer Fred:

[2:29] You take care of the basics and you can grow with a lot less water. We've got a lot of tips on growing vegetables using less water and what you can do with your soil, what you can do with your irrigation practices, and choosing the right vegetable varieties as well.

Marlene Simon:

[2:44] Yeah. So as every gardener should, and what we're going to do, we're going to start with soil first, because soil is key for almost every garden, and it's very key for saving water. So most people, a lot of people who are getting into gardening think, oh, I have to do a raised bed for whatever reasons. A lot of times it's they don't want to work the clay soils. But what are the pros and the cons of a raised bed versus in-ground beds as far as saving water?

Farmer Fred:

[3:14] Oh, as far as saving water, I was going to say, the first benefit of a raised bed is you don't have to bend over as far.

Marlene Simon:

[3:22] Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I'm there already. That's why I have raised beds. But as far as saving water, so this is what, I mean, happens. And I hate to say it, it happened to me even as you build or you have your husband build these beautiful raised beds. And of course, you've got to fill it with soil. So where do you get soil? You either go to the rock yard, you buy bagged soils, and generally you're going to put in potting soil. Well, it just so happens that potting soil happens to be a looser, faster draining than your most native soils, unless you live along the beach, of course. And, you know, you plant things and it drains right out and you find yourself watering a lot more frequently. Am I correct in that?

Farmer Fred:

[4:03] The drip irrigation system is if you have a drought, it's necessary to grow a food crop to use less water. And the profile of that water footprint as it drips out in a raised bed, because that soil is so loose, the water profile cylinder might be seven or eight inches in diameter. Whereas in your native soil, especially clay soil, it could be up to 18 inches wide. And what a lot of people don't do with raised beds… let's go back before we even start throwing dirt into the raised bed. One thing I would really like people to do is loosen up the existing soil at the bottom of the bed. Clear out anything that may be there. Loosen it up and work in maybe two to three inches of whatever soil you're bringing in to the existing soil. Otherwise, when that water hits that new level of soil, it's going to drain out sideways. And that's why people, when they turn on their drip irrigation system or their sprinkling system on their raised beds for too long and they see water coming out from underneath the beds, that's usually the reason why. It didn't have a chance to percolate any further. So you really want to work in, like I say, about two to three inches of the new soil with the existing soil. Then you can throw away the rototiller and get a chipper shredder.

Marlene Simon:

[5:20] Yeah, just get rid of it. So, yeah, that's a good recommendation. What I did is I got a potting soil that's sort of equivalent to the potting soil we use at work, which is really fast draining because we are on the side of having to water more. And for the past couple of years, I went, oh, my gosh, I can't believe I did that. So I'm backfilling and amending. Of course, every year for vegetable gardens, you do need to amend your soil. You're going to lose volume just because organic matter breaks down. So I've added peat moss back in and things that are going to basically when you add something in to hold moisture, peat moss is generally the go-to. And I know when I garden in the ground, the watering difference is crazy. A raised bed, I may have to water every day, every two days. And in ground beds, I could get away with maybe once a week. It's a big difference.

Farmer Fred:

[6:10] Another big benefit of using the existing soil instead of raised beds, your corn crop won't fall over in a windstorm like mine did this year.

Marlene Simon:

[6:18] Oh, no.

Farmer Fred:

[6:20] That was so sad. I even built a structure in the raised bed to support the corn. Heck, I've been growing corn for decades, but it's always been in existing soil. I've grown popcorn commercially. And I knew that at some point in a raised bed, it's going to fall over. And sure enough, in the past, it's fallen over. So I got some what are called concrete reinforcement wire sheets. They're usually four feet by five feet. They're six inch mesh. And I got some cinder blocks and the cinder blocks are six by six by eight inches. And so basically I stack these sheets where the corn was going to grow on top of each block so that there were like three levels of these reinforcement wires to hold the corn upright. Well, the corn variety I grew was a sweet corn variety called Jubilee. Popcorn, when it grows, it usually gets maybe six feet tall. This Jubilee, a sweet corn, got 10 feet tall.

Marlene Simon:

[7:14] Oh my.

Farmer Fred:

[7:15] And we had a windstorm in July and it blew over the concrete blocks and everything right over. So if I'm going to grow corn again, I'm going to be doing it in what little ground I have that doesn't have a raised bed.

Marlene Simon:

[7:27] Yeah. We mentioned why people do raised beds and one of the reasons is just not bending over, correct? Other times people think, well, I don't want to, it's hard to dig into this clay soil. Correct. Or they even think, oh, the clay soils doesn't have enough nutrients or it's not good. But actually, clay soils have a decent amount. They're actually pretty full of nutrients and minerals. And then you add mulch on top. And I like to tell a story that in my previous garden, which I planted, and I got these free wood chips and I laid the wood chips on this area. And I want to say these wood chips were about like a foot deep, if not. And I left my irrigation on drip overnight, a little longer, longer than I wanted to because I forgot. I did not have to water my tomatoes for no joke, like three to four weeks. It was amazing.

Farmer Fred:

[8:20] I believe it. I believe it. Every year on my raised beds, when I take a crop out at the end of a season, I will work the bed again to improve the drainage so that the water will spread out so that it will remain longer in the raised bed. My beds are all four foot by eight foot long. And I'll add maybe three of those two and a half cubic foot bags of a good quality organic compost. And I'll mix in two or three bags per bed of worm castings as well. And yeah, I'll go back to the days of double digging. You get a workout. It's fun.

Marlene Simon:

[8:55] Okay. I don’t know about fun, but you know, you also ride your bike for a hundred miles on your birthday.

Farmer Fred:

[9:00] Yes, I do.

Marlene Simon:

[9:02] Yeah.  However old you are, that's how many miles you ride your bike.

Farmer Fred:

[9:06] Well, I'm always superstitious. I usually ride a few more than my age just for insurance.

Marlene Simon:

[9:11] There you go. Yeah. All right. So it looks like, it looks like Bruce has joined us. 

Bruce Ritter:

[9:16] I am here. If you hear me, I stopped doing miles for my birthday when I hit 50. I said, this is my last one.

Marlene Simon:

[9:23] Oh, yeah. Bruce is a retired cyclist like I am, but Fred still rides his bike.

Farmer Fred:

[9:30] Bikes, yes. I got the disease. I started riding my age when I turned 30 because I'm going to show them I can still do it. And I've just done it every year since. And it's fun. And I usually work in another couple of century rides every year, too. I'll be doing the Sacramento Century in October as well, which is a fundraiser for the Sacramento Children's Home Crisis Nursery. So I'm glad to be supporting them in their efforts. That'll be fun.

Marlene Simon:

[9:57] Yeah, good. So we were talking about raised beds and Bruce is having an issue with his soil being too quickly draining, but it's almost like a raised bed because it's stepped up from the rest of the ground about what, two feet?

Bruce Ritter:

[10:13] About two feet, I'm going to say, yeah. What happened was there was a sort of a hill we covered with ivy. I ripped out all the ivy and the hill was about, I don't know, five feet by 25 feet. And it ended up at ground level. So I built up a wall and filled it in and carted in soil.

Farmer Fred:

[10:30] What did you cart in?

Bruce Ritter:

[10:31] I just went over to the local rock yard fill person and had topsoil carted in. And it seemed like a quality topsoil, it had a very earthy smell to it when it came. But I also had a lot of clay underneath. So I had to dig that all in it. To make a long story short, it's exceptionally well draining, which has been a curse because I have to water every single day.

Farmer Fred:

[10:53] Yeah, that's where the compost and worm castings amended once or twice a year can really help that soil retain moisture. And the other thing too, especially if you have a derp irrigation system, Is people don't run enough lateral lines. In a four foot wide bed, I will have five parallel lines running the length of the bed. So they're about eight inches apart. And I found then you get the overlapping of the water from the footprint. Whereas out in your native soil, you could have that, like I mentioned earlier, that circle could be easily 18 inches wide and you don't have to water as often. But with a raised bed, yeah, especially if you've got a really nice potting mix in there that's mostly very easily draining product, yeah, you have to build up the organic matter. 

Now, besides the worm castings and adding the compost, I'm popular in this neighborhood where I live because I will go out and volunteer to rake up everybody's oak leaves in the neighborhood. A lot of oaks around here. So I will rake up their leaves, bring them back, and put them in my compost bags. I have 100-gallon compost bags that I put them in and just keep them wet, and they break down. But also, I use those leaves just to throw on top of the beds to about 6 to 10 inches deep over the winter if I'm not growing a cover crop. In effect, that mulch, the leafs, are my cover crop because especially what I like to do is chop them up with either a mulching mower or a weed whacker. And then spread them on the beds. And they break down fairly quickly. They will last the whole season, but they're feeding the soil as they break down. The microbiology in the soil loves it. The moisture is better retained. It suppresses weeds, and it suppresses fluctuations in soil temperature as well.

Marlene Simon:

[12:49] So you're using oak leaves as a mulch, whereas I use compost. So I lay the compost on top. And we always want to state that compost, you should not pixie dust it. It should be about three to six inches for it to really work. And then Bruce and I were talking today about mulch and, you know, we're talking about wood chips and I don't use wood chips, the ones I get from a company or of course I don't use the bag ones because I turn the vegetable garden soil over so much. So people who, you know, have like the bagged wood, like pieces that look nice, you don't want to do that in your vegetable garden because like you said, you're adding and you're amending constantly at least once a year, if not twice a year. And you don't want those pieces of bark dug in. So your leaves work great, compost works great.

Bruce Ritter:

[13:36] About the county compost that they provide free… do you feel that's a good quality compost?

Farmer Fred:

[13:41] Do you feel lucky? Do you, punk?

Bruce Ritter:

[13:45] I guess that's sometimes.

Farmer Fred:

[13:47] Well, my big concern about municipal compost is you don't know what's in it. You know that grass clippings are in it, but have people been treating their lawns with weed and feed products? And some of the weed controls in weed and feed products can persist for years in soil (note: Clopyralid can persist for years; 2,4-D can persist for six weeks in compost). So do you really want to take that chance of maybe stunting a new crop? The best garden soil you can have is the soil you make yourself.

Marlene Simon:

[14:21] That is true.

Farmer Fred:

[14:22] And that's why I'm big on making your own compost.

Marlene Simon:

[14:25] Yeah. Well, I mean, what I do is, especially for the winter crops, is I pretty much cut everything up and just lay it on top. So say I go and harvest cauliflower. And yes, you could eat cauliflower greens, but by the time I harvest, they don't look great. And that's it. They're one and done. So I leave the root ball in and then I just cut the leaves up and just lay it on top. So as long as you don't have a major pest issue or a certain disease, you know, if they're not diseased. You don't want to necessarily leave your diseased tomatoes in, but I just don't even put stuff in a compost bin a lot. I just lay it on top and let it work its way in. And that works as just a mulch to preserve water if you put it thick enough, but also it just breaks down to build up that soil.

Farmer Fred:

[15:09] But if you want to add nitrogen to the soil, because nitrogen is so volatile, if you just lay the green parts on the surface, that nitrogen just goes poof up in the year. So I would take those arborist chips that you have and maybe throw that on top of the green stuff.

Marlene Simon:

[15:24] Yeah. I usually then add some chicken manure or just compost on top of it. But it's just, I don't move anything out generally, unless it's weeds with weed seed and stuff. But yeah, I don't think we could stress enough about mulch to preserve water. That is like for your standard garden, for your vegetable garden. Mulch prevents that evapotranspiration from the soil. You could get away with watering like down to once a week if it's in the ground, in clay soils, and you're irrigating it deep and infrequently. Yeah, you shouldn't have to water every day. Then the problem is if you do gardening in a raised bed, just make sure that you do amend it so it's holding more water than, say, a house plant that you want the soil, the water to drain pretty quickly out.

Farmer Fred:

[16:11] I have entered the 21st century and now have a Bluetooth moisture meter. It has prongs on it that are about six to eight inches long. I rotate it from bed to bed and it feeds a monitor I have here in my office. And it tells me what the soil temperature is at all times, what the soil moisture is at all times. And it's great. That way I know when it needs water at the root level at six inches down. I don't have to guess. And I don't have to dig out the soil logger or dig down and feel the soil moisture by hand. But if you want to, that's a good way to do it. But you do have to monitor the soil moisture.

Marlene Simon:

[16:48] Yeah. So what is the program you have?

Farmer Fred:

[16:50] Oh, it's called Rainpoint.

Marlene Simon:

[16:52] Okay.

Farmer Fred:

[16:53]  You can look it up. Amazon sells it. They're Wi-Fi and Bluetooth based. And it works fairly flawlessly. You do have to change the batteries on both units, the indoor unit and the outdoor unit, at least once a year. But it's just pleasant to have readings like that. What isn't pleasant is the thermometer I have in here that tells me the temperature in the greenhouse, where right now in there it's 110 degrees.

Marlene Simon:

[17:17] Yeah. So say a tomato plant, how many probes do you have around the tomato plant? Or do you just have like how close are the probes put together?

Farmer Fred:

[17:26] The probes are maybe six inches apart. I mean, it's just one little unit that's maybe eight inches by eight inches that has two probes on it.

Marlene Simon:

[17:36] Okay.

Farmer Fred:

[17:36] And I just move it around from place to place, bed to bed, and check it out.

Marlene Simon:

[17:42] Yeah. So it's like it's a step up, several steps up from just those water meters that you'd stick in there. And then they have the little arrow that  swings back and forth.

Farmer Fred:

[17:54] If you want to grow food in a drought, to get back to it, you need a food action plan. And compost, mulch, using a drip system are important points to remember in that. And then you have to be selective. You've got to consider the water available to support the crops through the harvest and grow only the amounts and the types of vegetables that, A, your family will eat, and B, don't plant as many, and C, don't plant out of season. For example, cool season crops are not very drought tolerant. The ones that you grow during the wintertime, lettuce and beets and cauliflower, things like that, they're thirsty plants. Whereas there's a lot of plants that you can grow in the summertime that don't require that much water, probably less water than you're putting on. The main point I would really like to drive home here: give your vegetables the minimum amount of water that they need rather than as much as they can withstand. Because flooding does nobody any good and it just increases the chance of diseases.

Marlene Simon:

[18:56] I want to circle back because I want you to talk about ones that love water, and then we'll go into some varieties of them. But I do want to mention that a lot of people mistake when they come home on a hot day, their squash or zucchini or melon leaves that are large are wilted, and even their tomatoes are wilted. And that's not necessarily a sign of needing to water. That is the plant just doing what it can to prevent more water loss. So this is where going back again, you always want to check the soil moisture because you could be watering when you don't need to. It's just the plant's way of dealing with the heat and the stress. So you'll see afternoon wilt when you grow pumpkins. It's pretty bizarre because the leaves are so big and they just look like they've melted. But the next morning, without doing anything, they're perky again.

Farmer Fred:

[19:47] Exactly. That's why you should walk your garden every morning. And then if you start seeing wilted plants in the morning, then you will check the soil moisture level and see if it's okay or not. But yeah, walking your soil, checking the plants every morning, it saves a lot of stress from doing it in the late afternoon when all sorts of other problems could be happening. I want to also circle back to a lot of people make the mistake with clay soil is they think that, oh, I've got clay soil. It's terrible soil, blah, blah, blah. Actually, clay soil is very good soil. Do not make the mistake of if you're going to put in a shrub or a tree or a perennial and you dig a hole in clay and you think, well, I'm going to treat this plant right. I'm just going to pour in a bag of brand new potting soil into this hole. Don't do that. Because all you're doing is creating a sump where all the water is going to go. If you remember high school biology class, you remember that water moves from an area of greater pressure to lesser pressure, osmosis. And that loose, friable, nice potting soil you just bought is going to collect all that water from the clay soil. And you've basically created a bathtub in the middle of your yard. So just use, like you said, native soil.

Marlene Simon:

[20:57] Yeah. And if you want, if it makes you feel better, you know, put in a handful or two of compost and mix it in and then lay it on top. But yeah, yeah. And like you said, that goes for planting anything. Some plants are not forgiving. You go do that with a ceanothus, that ceanothus will probably just die on you right away with the water around it.

Farmer Fred:

[21:14] That brings up a whole other issue. Don't get me started. See, stay in the country where you're living. Don't ever move to suburban purgatory. It would drive you nuts. Ever since we moved into town and we're out walking the dogs or whatever, And I see these sprinkler systems on and they're hitting Ceanothus plants. They're on all day. And it's just like, no, no, please. I've begged people to remove the stake binds from their trees. They will have the original tree ties on a tree they planted. I just want to go there at night and bring my knife and just cut the ribbons away to free that tree so it can grow.

Marlene Simon:

[21:52] All right. I figure that's something you do on your walks. You're just like, that's you're going to be carrying like some PVC glue. So you're just going to cap people's sprinkler system.

Farmer Fred:

[22:02] No, no.

Marlene Simon:

[22:03] There’s probably a poster about it. Like, look out for this, this guy right here.  I mean, it's sort of like the whole event of when it's raining and you see a sprinkler on.

Bruce Ritter:

[22:12] That's annoying. Yeah. Yeah.

Farmer Fred:

[22:14] My wife's favorite expression to me while we're out walking the dogs is, “just shut up. Don't say anything to them”.

Marlene Simon:

[22:21] He's cringing. “She's like, don't say it, don't say it. These are our neighbors.”

Farmer Fred:

[22:25] Yes.

Marlene Simon:

[22:27] Hopefully she's trained you well.

Farmer Fred:

[22:28] Oh, I try. I manage to work in a snarky comment or two to sort of make them think about it.

Marlene Simon:

[22:35] Yeah. Yes. Like, wow, that’s a lot of water. Yeah.

Farmer Fred:

[22:38] But they love me at tomato time when I've got extra plants out front.

Marlene Simon:

[22:42] There you go. Oh, yeah. There you go. Speaking of tomatoes, are they heavy, heavy water users compared to all the other summer vegs? What would you say are probably some that use the most water?

Farmer Fred:

[22:53] The most water thirsty plant? I think corn needs a lot of water because corn needs water during tasseling, when the kernels are forming, and during ear development. And yield is directly related to quantities of water. So corn needs a lot. Some beans, especially vining beans, need considerable water to produce a good crop. Bush beans, however, require less water. And beans need water most when they are blooming and setting fruit. Peas need water most during pod filling. And other vegetables such as cucumbers and squash and fruits as melons, they need water most during flowering and fruiting. Tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, they mostly need water during flowering and fruiting. In fact, after tomatoes set fruit, they can do very well with reduced watering and you can even cut off the water to tomato plants after the tomatoes have formed and you're just waiting for them to harvest, and then you're gonna rip out the plant. So for most people around here who finish up their tomato plants and their tomato harvest may be in late September, early October. You could turn the water off at the beginning of September and those tomatoes are going to get sweeter for you, but they're going to do fine.

Marlene Simon:

[24:09] Yeah, it's sort of like when people dry-grow grapes a dry way, i.e. you cut the water back, makes the fruit sweeter in theory. And I also think people, towards the end of the season, people start getting very concerned about how their plants look. and that's not a water thing. That's just normal plant death as these plants like zucchini. It's put on so much, it's reaching its life no matter how much water. In fact, giving it more water is going to possibly make it worse. So just know what your plant's life cycle is and if it's already has its roots established, it's put out a whole bunch of fruit. Yeah, it doesn't need as much water. It's done its job. Yeah, and it's not going to look good.

Farmer Fred:

[24:52] Yeah i get that too. the kids in the neighborhood go, “Why don't you just go and die old man?”  And i answer, “No! And if i had a lawn, i'd tell you to get off my lawn!”

Marlene Simon:

[25:04] Yeah Joe's smiling that's one of his favorite quotes. Yeah you're really selling this suburban life to me.

Farmer Fred:

[25:11] It's  close to everything, though. There is that.

Marlene Simon:

[25:16] Really? oh that's great yeah. The bars are close by that you apparently need to go to if you live in the suburbs.

Farmer Fred:

[25:24] Oh, let me get back to naming some vegetable varieties that might be drought tolerant.

Marlene Simon:

[25:29] Yes.

Farmer Fred:

[25:30] And they're also heat tolerant, too, we should point out. And one of the ways to pick those out is if you do plant from seed, if you hit the seed catalogs, choose some of the varieties that say that the plant is tolerant of heat or tolerant of drought as it grows. And so choose a seed company that is based in the heat, for instance, like the Southern Exposure Seed Exchange. And they have a list of vegetable varieties that they say are heat tolerant and somewhat drought resistant. They include Green Pod Red Seed Beans, Lima Beans, the Tropic VFN Tomato, the Ozark Pink VF Tomato, the Neptune Tomato, Black Beauty Eggplant, the Carolina Wonder Pepper, the Charleston Bell Pepper, the Aji Dulce Pepper, some cucumber varieties like Little Leaf or Ashley or the Suyo Long Cucumber, summer squash varieties like Tromboncino or the Waltham Butternut Winter Squash, some pumpkin varieties, Sentinal pumpkin, melon varieties too. Who would have thunk? Missouri Gold Melon, Top Mark Melon, Sweet Passion Melon, Kansas Melon, Crimson Sweet Watermelon, Strawberry Watermelon, and of course, Okra, Gold Coast, Stewart ZBeast, and Beck's Big Buck Okra all can give you a lot of bang for a lot of little buck of water.

Marlene Simon:

[26:51] Yeah, that Strawberry Watermelon is one of my favorite. I try to grow it every year. It's really good. Variety. Yeah, and you think a watermelon, big plants, big leaves, and the whole entire fruit is just gallons of water. These are varieties that will tolerate and take less water. So that is within each vegetable group, you could still be smarter about it. Do you recommend people planting? I mean, this is where you're getting really organized is, you know, maybe all your tomatoes. In one area and all your beans in another area, I guess you could control the watering slightly different with that. So if you're really trying to dial it in.

Farmer Fred:

[27:30] Well, to really dial it in, you'd want to hydrozone, which is to put plants with similar watering requirements in the same bed. That's why when I built my raised beds for the second time around here in suburban purgatory, I wanted to do it with a control in each bed. For example, I have beds that are dedicated for garlic and onions, because I can turn the water off to those as they mature. And they're maturing usually in May, June. And instead of having to compete with plants that need water in that bed, I can just turn the water off in that bed and let them do their thing until they're ready to be harvested.

Marlene Simon:

[28:08] Yeah. Every drip line I have actually is on its own little valve that I could turn on and off. So based if I'm like, oh, I'm pulling out this and I don't have anything in this, but I still have to water. I don't feel bad. Like that water's not going, you know, I just turned the valves off. So I think more control over each area of what is best if you can. So yeah, I'm not as organized as, Oh, I'm, I'm planting all my things here. I ripped something out and I'm like, Oh, I have a spot. I could put something in. Oh, I ripped something out. Oh, I could put that. If you look at my garden, you'd be like, she's sort of scattered and all over the place.

Farmer Fred:

[28:44] Well, that's good for beneficial insects by having a variety of plants. Interspersed with each other. You're showing the good guys where the bad guys are.

Bruce Ritter:

[28:52] That's Marlene's plan.

Marlene Simon:

[28:54] Yeah, and I, well, I have flowers intermixed too and they're on the same water, you know, schedule. So, like sunflowers are in the ground because one, they fall over if they're in too much of a loose soil like your corn did. But then smaller flowers that are relatively drought tolerant in with my vegetables. So there are ways of doing it. Now, what do you think is a sort of a no-go? What would you say, where you said, what did you say takes up the most water, corn?

Farmer Fred:

[29:20] Corn is definitely a very thirsty crop, and you'd probably want to avoid that. The vining beans might take up a lot of water. You have to see or go into the plant's biology to see when do they need water. And like I mentioned, corn needs water, is critical need of water at least three stages in its development. Beans during usually two stages of its development. So you go with plants that once they set fruit, you know, you can cut back the water. Tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, again, flowering, fruiting time. But after tomatoes set fruit, they can do very well with reduced water.

Bruce Ritter:

[29:59] And of course, corn takes up a tremendous amount of space. And if you have a small garden, it's a lot of space to devote to one plant, which doesn't produce for that long a period.

Farmer Fred:

[30:08] Being a gardener, you start waxing romantically about, oh, sweet corn. I can do what grandma used to do and start a pot of boiling water on the stove and then go out and harvest the corn and then immediately throw it into the boiling water and have the best corn possible.

Marlene Simon:

[30:25] Bruce, be careful talking smack about corn. Remember, he grew popping corn for years and years.

Bruce Ritter:

[30:31] Well, I've tried corn and I ended up with a Mexican, what do you call it? A delicacy in my corn. Oh, yeah.

Farmer Fred:

[30:39] Oh, was it maiz chulpe?

Bruce Ritter:

[30:41] It was. I don't know. It was corn smut.

Marlene Simon:

[30:45] I call it corn smut. Okay.

Farmer Fred:

[30:47] Well, there is a Mexican corn. Actually, it's a South American corn variety called maiz chulpe that they serve in restaurants down in South America as an appetizer. It looks like corn nuts. And it grows about 10 feet tall on a stem that you could use as a baseball bat.

Marlene Simon:

[31:05] Oh, wow.

Farmer Fred:

[31:06] And it turns out it's a lot of work harvesting all that corn and drying it. But it is possible. And that didn't require much water at all, the maiz chulpe. So if you want to try that, be my guest and create a new South American appetizer for North America.

Marlene Simon:

[31:22] Right. One interesting thing is down the street from us, every year they grow corn. And this year they did not. And every year they would flood irrigate it. And this year I noticed there was a sprinkler system like the portable lines of the rainbird type sprinklers. And I'm like, gosh, you know, it's late and they're overhead watering. And I'm looking and sure enough, there's corn popping up. Do you think later in the year, like they're planting now, that's probably worse for water. It's probably going to take more water.

Farmer Fred:

[31:54] It depends what they're growing the corn for. Is it field corn? You know, if it's field corn, you can cut the water off on that. Okay.

Marlene Simon:

[32:04] Yeah. And they're doing overhead watering. And I mean, I know there's a lot of varieties of corn now that are much shorter, but I still was like, they don't have really time. I don't know what's going on, to be honest. I'm like, this is going to be interesting.

Farmer Fred:

[32:15] Yeah. Yeah. Keep an eye on it. University of California, you may have heard of them. The Master Gardeners have some really good reports about drought-resistant crops and varieties or growing food in a drought. The UC Master Gardener Program of Alameda County has an online webpage called Your Food Garden in Drought. And check that out. It's got a lot of good tips on what we've been talking about here. And they talk about the plants to grow in a drought situation and the ones to avoid. So you can check that out. One tip they do make on this, and that's pretty important, too, when you're selecting plant varieties to grow, look for early maturing or short season varieties because a crop needing fewer days to mature requires less frequent irrigation before harvest. And determinate varieties of tomatoes where they tend to ripen all at once, that's a great way to go too. I've gotten into the habit of growing such a plant. I planted in early April a Bush Early Girl determinate tomato plant and it produced tomatoes…Let's see, I planted that on April 5th, I think it was, and I harvested it starting in June, into the first week of July.

Marlene Simon:

[33:28] Fred, April 5th?

Farmer Fred:

[33:30] Yeah, I know. It's not April 28th.

Marlene Simon:

[33:32] It's not April 28th. What's going on? Because it got you. It said early and you went for it.

Farmer Fred:

[33:37] Yeah. Well, you know, what I started talking about,  “we always plant tomatoes on April 28th, official tomato planting day.” I started that before there was a climate crisis back in the 1990s, I think it was. And so, yeah, you know, the weather's getting nicer and talk to any nursery person and they'll tell you, hey, people are coming in the first nice weekend in February looking for tomato plants.

Marlene Simon:

[34:01] Yeah, that's risky.

Bruce Ritter:

[34:02] That's a little risky.

Farmer Fred:

[34:03] You know, customers are always right.

Bruce Ritter:

[34:05] Yeah. It makes them feel good. They get to start getting, you know, their hands dirty, so to speak. Yeah. Yeah.

Marlene Simon:

[34:10] So I just want to transition real quick to winter crops, because I love winter crops because I don't have to, I could turn the irrigation off, assuming we don't get incredibly dry year like we had a few years ago. So a lot of winter crops you're planting now, so you're planting in the heat, you're planting these plants that are trying to get their roots established. So could you say maybe it's almost like a net water usage because you're giving them so much early on, but then you could turn the water off once we get, in theory, rains?

Farmer Fred:

[34:40] Yes, in theory. Rains are very important. And yeah, but generally that the temperatures are down, there is less solar activity, too. The days are shorter. And I think a lot of gardeners are getting wise to the idea of avoiding a lot of plant problems and getting better production by putting some of their summer crop in part shade, where there is late afternoon shade now. Well, even though the package of tomato seeds might say plant in full sun, well, maybe try one or two in shade in the afternoon when a building or some sort of shadow falls over your garden at about two o'clock in the afternoon or so.

Marlene Simon:

[35:18] I know. people love that. Peppers want shade.

Farmer Fred:

[35:21] Well, yeah, especially those facing west or south. I mean, when people start asking about, well, what's wrong with my peppers and tomatoes? They're all turning brown on this one side. I go, what side does that face? And they're usually saying west or south. Well, that's the way the sun goes. So try to protect it. You can put in a high hoop row cover to protect it from too much sun. That too can also cut your water usage.

Marlene Simon:

[35:42] That's true. Yeah, a cooler plant. Avoid, I mean, a lot of people want to, you know, always think, oh, I could miss mist my plants or just hose them off in the afternoon. That's not really, it may make you feel better if you get hosed off for a bit, but may knock some of the pests off. But really, that's not doing anything to cool the plant necessarily. In fact, you could be spreading around some of fungal spores if you overhead water too much.

Farmer Fred:

[36:07] That depends on the humidity at night too. I mean, the old saw of, oh, you should wash your plants off in the morning, not in the afternoon. That applies mostly to the East Coast where you have humidity levels of 90% or so. But here in California where, you know, 20% is a humid day. Yeah. If you want to wash off your plant, fine. Just do it a little earlier in the morning.

Marlene Simon:

[36:29] Yeah. These are all good tips. And the article could be found at bewatersmart.info. But now I just generally want to ask you, we've had relatively cool temperatures. I mean, 80 degrees in summer here? Unheard of. My peppers are really loving it. Tomatoes, too. I mean, I'm assuming that's the word on the street is everyone's garden is doing really well this year.

Farmer Fred:

[36:53] It's fantastic. The only complaints I'm hearing are from those who usually have irregular watering habits and they're getting a lot of blossom end rot on their tomatoes. And that is not due to some sort of pest or disease. It's operator error. It's irrigation issues. You're allowing that tomato plant to have dry spells as well as too wet of a spell. And when you have that imbalance, there are bad things happening down on the root zone that's basically clogging up those roots so they can't absorb calcium. You have plenty of calcium in the soil. It's just if the roots are clogged up, they can't get through to the plant. So moderate your watering and also talk about filling raised beds with soil. And this is also true with your existing garden is check the pH of the soil. I've gotten into the habit, I have to buy bulk soil from the local rock yard

Farmer Fred:

[37:47] I will want it delivered that day. So I want to go out to that rock yard and do a quick pH test, which is easy to do, of the load that they're going to be delivering to my place. I want to make sure it's somewhere, hopefully between maybe six and seven and a half, and especially not too alkaline, not too high. And I've done that with some loads out at rock yards where the pH has been over eight. And, you know, I don't want to wait for years to try to rebalance the soil. So try to avoid any big parcels of soil that you might be buying if the pH is way too high or way too low.

Marlene Simon:

[38:23] Yeah, if I get pH that's our soil and it's, you know, a six or a seven, just one watering will probably raise that right up to like a nine.

Farmer Fred:

[38:32] Oh, somebody's on well water.

Marlene Simon:

[38:34] Oh God, how about a 90 foot deep well that it's awful. It is so alkaline. It's crazy. Because I clogged, I mean, alkaline and so many sediments, I clogged a industrial RO unit (reverse osmosis unit) within one day.

Bruce Ritter:

[38:52] Wow.

Marlene Simon:

[38:54] So yeah. But the nice thing is, is my vegetables don't seem to care so much. Like, you know, I mean, can I grow other things? 

Farmer Fred:

[39:03] Yeah, blueberries would have a hard time there.

Marlene Simon:

[39:05] Yeah, I don't even, don't even. But yeah, that's a good point. Just know your soil. Know your soil, know your watering.

Farmer Fred:

[39:14] Know your water.

Marlene Simon:

[39:16] Know your water, yeah. Know where your water's coming from. Know basically what your soil makeup is as well. And yeah, and just don't assume that, oh, like you said, oh, my plant's suffering from calcium, that, oh, I have no calcium, and then you start adding. Gobs of fertilizer. That could be a whole different topic.

Farmer Fred:

[39:36] Yeah, that is, but all it does is make money for nurseries.

Marlene Simon:

[39:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Farmer Fred:

[39:41] All right, but getting back to your well, how often do you have to flush your drip irrigation lines?

Marlene Simon:

[39:48] It's so bad, Fred. I don't even flush them. I use the drip tape.

Farmer Fred:

[39:52] Oh, okay.

Marlene Simon:

[39:54] And I replace it every year. I run into problems midway through the next. It's bad.

Farmer Fred:

[39:59] How do you keep squirrels from chewing up the drip tape?

Marlene Simon:

[40:02] I have a lot of cats. There's no squirrels.

Bruce Ritter:

[40:04] All right. How to keep the cats from chewing up the drip tape.

Marlene Simon:

[40:09] There's one squirrel. And I looked at him the other day and we looked at each other and I said, you know, you need to get out of here. The cats don't care about drip tape. Yeah. As long as they're getting the good food from us. I mean, that is the problem with drip irrigation as well. I should say, beginning of the season, don't assume your irrigation is fine. Over winter, things happen to the drip lines. They come undone. You get holes in them. And that is one of the biggest wastes of water is just bad irrigation setup.

Farmer Fred:

[40:41] Oh, yeah. Check your connections and watch out for ant colonies.

Marlene Simon:

[40:45] Is that where they're at?

Farmer Fred:

[40:47] Well, they're going to hang out where the water is. And if they find an opening big enough, they will clog up a half-inch pipe.

Marlene Simon:

[40:55] Really? The ants? Wow.

Bruce Ritter:

[40:57] That's a lot of ants.

Farmer Fred:

[40:59] Yeah, you ought to see them coming out the end of the pipe.

Bruce Ritter:

[41:02] I used to have issues with earwigs getting into the emitters and then promptly dying. And then I'd come back a couple of weeks later, why is there no water coming out of these? And I'd open them up and there'd be a little dead earwig in them.

Marlene Simon:

[41:14] Yeah, yeah. So yeah, irrigation.

Bruce Ritter:

[41:16] You got to watch for that.

Marlene Simon:

[41:17] Yeah, irrigation before you turn it on for the season. And then it's sort of almost like you have to tune your ears into leakage. You're like, wait a minute, I hear a gush of water or that sounds louder over there. And then you sort of track it down.

Farmer Fred:

[41:34] Exactly. Use your ears to look for leaks.

Marlene Simon:

[41:36] Yeah. Yes, because then you go... Oh, man, is my back ready for me to bend over and fix this?

Farmer Fred:

[41:45] I'm the go-to guy in this neighborhood when somebody needs a spare drip part.

Marlene Simon:

[41:49] Yes. Oh, I know. Generally, though, I'm like, why do I have all these half-inch ones? I don't have, when did I have half-inch lines? Usually it's like I never have the part I need.

Farmer Fred:

[41:57] Getting back to the topic quickly of some plants that you may not want to grow in a drought because they need a lot of water to grow. There was a farm advisor years and years ago named Paul Vossen, worked for the University of California, and he came up with a list of plants about what not to grow in a drought. And he talked about strawberries, raspberries, blueberries, blackberries, table olives, table grapes, peaches, nectarines, pears, asparagus. He mentions peppers and eggplant, too. Cutting grains, spinach, watermelon, corn, beans and summer onions. And We talked about some of the exceptions to that.

Bruce Ritter:

[42:36] That's just about everything I want to grow.

Marlene Simon:

[42:40] He mentioned asparagus. That's interesting because that's a perennial. So you think, okay, the roots are already established. I don't know. So he's saying that uses a lot of water.

Farmer Fred:

[42:49] Yeah, I mean, it does. Anybody who's ever grown asparagus knows you have a jungle by July that gets five, six feet tall. And the water has to support that.

Marlene Simon:

[43:00] Yeah, true. Yeah, I'm trying to think. I turned off the irrigation to this one area and it's, I should go take a look at it. Yeah. But yeah, that doesn't leave a lot to grow though.

Farmer Fred:

[43:09] Well, again, if we go back to the soil and if you amend the soil to where it can absorb and hold more water, I think you can get away with it. And also growing it in part shade or using high hoop row covers can help mitigate the problems too. So it's possible to grow a successful garden during a drought, as long as you have at least some water during the critical portions of whenever that plant is going to mature.

Bruce Ritter:

[43:40] And I think your idea of only growing what you need is really important because if you're one or two people, you don't need 10 tomato plants. Get by on two.

Farmer Fred:

[43:51] Nurseries are finally catching on to that and you see fewer and fewer six packs of vegetables because who needs six early girl tomatoes?

Marlene Simon:

[43:59] Yeah.

Farmer Fred:

[43:59] For a family of four, maybe four tomato plants and that's about it. And also, I like the idea, too, of using the quicker growers and the determinant varieties to get through the drought a little quicker.

Bruce Ritter:

[44:13] Now, can you put determinant varieties into your garden late so that way you get a fall crop?

Farmer Fred:

[44:18] Sure.  it depends, of course, on your soil temperature and length of day. But for the most part, if you wanted to plant tomatoes in late July, you could have a harvest (in about two months). Just choose varieties that are going to mature between 55 and 65 days. But you got to be careful about, well, can there be an early frost? That's usually very rare here, although it has happened in November.

Marlene Simon:

[44:45] Yeah, by November, you're, well, if they're determinate, you're just getting your tomatoes if that's the only crop you plant. But generally by November, I'm like, okay, tomatoes.

Bruce Ritter:

[44:54] Done with them.

Farmer Fred:

[44:55] No, no, no, no, no, no. The idea is to get it through Christmas.

Marlene Simon:

[45:00] That's right. Yeah, whatever. Before we go, because I don't want to take all your time, I do want to mention you talked about shade and cooling. I do want to talk about sort of the heat sinks. So many people are using those metal troughs. A lot of people use pea gravel for their beds around. So think of all these heat sinks and all the heat that's reflecting off of these, like walls, cement, the pea gravel, the metal troughs. All those heat equals loss of water. So just be aware of that as well. It may look nice, you know, like the metal troughs with the pea gravel. I even see pictures. I'm like, oh, that's nice. And then I picture myself being in the summer when it's 110 right out there. And I'm like, oh, not so nice.

Farmer Fred:

[45:45] Well, a lot of people are using the watering troughs  for plant containers. Where do you buy watering troughs? You'd go to maybe tractor supply company. What else does tractor supply company sell? They sell tractor paint. and applying some coats of paint that are tractor colors to the outside of those metal bins can help cool them down a little bit.

Marlene Simon:

[46:10] So Kubota orange?

Farmer Fred:

[46:11] Kubota orange, yeah. Yeah, John Deere green, Ford red, Ford blue.

Marlene Simon:

[46:17] Yeah.

Farmer Fred:

[46:17] Mine is International Harvester red on my blueberries.

Marlene Simon:

[46:20] Okay, nice. Oh, yeah, you get color coordinated. There you go.

Marlene Simon:

[46:25] Well, thanks, Fred. So, Fred, your podcast is Garden Basics, and you put an episode out each week.

Farmer Fred:

[46:31] Amazing.

Marlene Simon:

[46:32] Stop bragging. Each week, wow. And that's on what, basically all the major podcast platforms?

Farmer Fred:

[46:40] Yeah, if you can get a podcast, you can get it. It's everywhere. There's a newsletter, too, called Beyond the Garden Basics that also comes out on Friday where I can get more wonky. And usually the newsletter, which is on Substack, also has a little podcast connected to it as well.

Marlene Simon:

[46:56] Okay, look at you. Wow. You got your fancy water meters and all this Substack.

Farmer Fred:

[47:03] I'm like, no, I just want to automate things. So I have more time to ride my bike.

Marlene Simon:

[47:08] There you go.

Bruce Ritter:

[47:09] Well, the next thing you need is a Bluetooth connected to your bike so that you can control the garden from your bike.

Farmer Fred:

[47:15] Oh, you can do that with a smartphone and a modern water timer. Yeah.

Marlene Simon:

[47:18] You need an e-bike.

Bruce Ritter:

[47:19] What do I know? An e-bike on Bluetooth.

Marlene Simon:

[47:23] Yeah. Well, thank you for being on. And everyone check out Fred's podcast. And of course, if you like both of our podcasts, rate and review them five star, because that just moves us up. And then people could find all these gardening tips and become better gardeners and grow your own food. And there you go.

Farmer Fred:

[47:41] And the name of your podcast…

Marlene Simon:

[47:44] Flower Power Garden Hour. There we go.

Farmer Fred:

[47:47] All right. With Marlene Simon, the plant lady.

Marlene Simon:

[47:50] And Bruce and Bruce Ritter. And I'm Marlene, the plant lady. So until next time, everyone, happy gardening.

Bruce Ritter:

[47:55] See you later.

Farmer Fred:

[47:57] Coming up on Saturday, October 4th, I'm going to be riding my bike. Well, what's so unusual about that, you might be asking yourself. Well, October 4th is the date of the Sacramento Century Challenge. That's a 100-mile bicycling event that goes along the Sacramento River. It starts in downtown Sacramento and heads south through the Delta Farmland region and loops back. And yes, 100 miles is part of the challenge. Also part of the challenge is myself. I'm 74 years old for heaven's sakes. And no, I will not be riding an electric bike. I have plenty of acoustic bikes to choose from. Adding to the challenge will be the route itself. It's infamous for pothole-filled river levee roads, as well as ferocious northerly headwinds that are usually in your face while you're pedaling on the way back. Now, I'm doing this for a very good cause. I'm helping out the Sacramento Rotary Club raise money for the Sacramento Children's Home Crisis Nursery. The Sacramento Children's Home Crisis Nursery is the only program of its kind here in Sacramento County. It directly prevents child abuse and neglect by supporting families with small children at times of crisis. The nursery allows parents to bring their children, ages newborn to five,  for emergency hourly or overnight care and protection during difficult times at home. Their goal is to keep families together and reduce the number of children entering foster care. We're calling this Farmer Fred's Ride for the Kids, and we'll have a link in today's show notes with more information on how you can donate to help out the Sacramento Children's Home Crisis Nursery and urge me onward. So how about it? Maybe you could pledge 10 cents a mile. That would be $10 along with a hearty you-go, Fred, or maybe a more generous $1 a mile. That's $100 to help give me the mental endurance for this all-day ride. And at my age, I'll have you know, I will take my time, thank you, and enjoy the farmland scenery and, of course, try to stay upright on the bike. Again, please support Farmer Fred's Ride for the Kids. Look for the link in today's show notes or at GardenBasics.net. Your support will help provide a safe place for local small children in need. Thank you for your support. Let's go.

Music:

[50:17] Music

Farmer Fred:

[50:23] Garden Basics with Farmer Fred comes out every Friday. Garden Basics is available wherever podcasts are handed out. For more information about the podcast, as well as an accurate transcript of the podcast, visit our website, GardenBasics.net. And thank you so much for listening and your support.