378 Battling Four-Legged Fruit Tree Pests

Show Transcript

378 TRANSCRIPT Battling Four-Legged Fruit Tree Pests

Farmer Fred:

 Hi, it's Farmer Fred, Master Gardener Fred Hoffman, and today we are controlling garden pests that have four legs. Rats, squirrels, raccoons, and deer. Debbie Flower, our favorite retired college horticultural professor, joins us with lots of good tips. It's episode number 378, Thwarting Four-Legged Garden Pests. We're podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutalon jungle in suburban Purgatory. It's the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Dave Wilson Nursery. Let's go.

BATTLING FOUR-LEGGED FRUIT TREE PESTS

Farmer Fred:

[0:48] We like to answer your garden questions here on the Garden Basics podcast. Debbie Flower is here, America's favorite retired college horticultural professor. And we get a question from Katie. And she's doing battle with squirrels and raccoons. And she says, “This year it's worse than ever. We've had pretty good success netting grapes and figs, then securing the netting to the ground with earth staples or river rocks all around it. But they chew holes in the netting. I repair the holes in the netting. We get most of the fruit. Last year, the squirrels ate many of the butternut squash at the baby stage, ate the belly out of an almost ripe spaghetti squash, and have been eating my zucchini. So when the persimmon tree we've waited for for nine years to fruit, it had fruited in years six, seven, and eight, but the fruit all dropped. Is that overwatering or underwatering?” 

She goes on to say, “When the said persimmon tree developed abundant fruit this year and it began to ripen, I decided to ward off the squirrels with stainless steel fruit sleeves. If it works, I'm going to try the larger stainless steel bags made to gopher-proof roots on my winter squashes next year. I wonder if you or any of your readers have tried either of these solutions.” 

I wonder if any of my listeners have tried any of these solutions. 

“It's always hard to measure success since things vary so much year to year. I may just end up with pulp-saturated stainless steel mesh.  I'll let you know how it goes. Thank you,” says Katie.

Farmer Fred:

[2:20] And she actually sent a picture in of her persimmon tree with the wire mesh basket around the fruit. Now, something like wire mesh, which is almost kind of like a soldier’s protective armor in the Middle Ages, I guess you couldn't chew through it, but it would be heavy, I would think. And to put it on fruit near the top of a tree, Well, I would hope you have a pretty short tree. So you'd want to keep the tree at a height you can reach the fruit without getting on a ladder with a bunch of wire mesh baskets.

Debbie Flower:

[2:49] Right. I read that quarter inch hardware cloth would work against a squirrel. A squirrel would not be able to chew its way through that.

Farmer Fred:

[2:56] Well, that's nice if you can bend it.

Debbie Flower:

[2:58] Right. And so the sleeves come, I'm not familiar with them. Are you? Do you use them?

Farmer Fred:

[3:02] Not these ones, but I feel for Katie and her nylon netting because I tried that on a pluot tree a couple of years ago, not only did they chew through the nylon netting, but one enterprising critter, somebody I think with an opposable thumb, untied it.

Debbie Flower:

[3:22] Wow.

Farmer Fred:

[3:22] Untied each of the fruit bags.

Debbie Flower:

[3:24] Wow.

Farmer Fred:

[3:25] And got into it.

Debbie Flower:

[3:26] That was either human or raccoon.

Farmer Fred:

[3:28] Yeah, it's probably a raccoon.

Debbie Flower:

[3:29] Yeah, they're crafty. But we're talking about squirrels right here. And she asked about raccoons. And the general way of protecting plants from mammals is exclusion. Meaning keep them out. So one thing that went through my mind is something that I've seen in Arizona, because in Arizona there are javelina, which are basically wild pigs, and they eat everything. There are also pack rats, which eat a lot of stuff too. And so people make basically porches, I guess, or rooms. So there's screening on the sides, all four sides and over the top. And so that becomes your garden in that space. It's expensive.

Farmer Fred

[4:18] You have POW camp.

Debbie Flower:

[4:20] Yes. Oh, unfortunately. But they weren't covered on the top. This would include a cover over the top. And you'd have to have a door to get in there. And then you'd have your beds or you'd be in the ground or whatever. And it's going to be expensive. And it's going to be the type of material you use to build the structure, if that's what you go for, has to take into account what your pests are. Right. If it's squirrels and raccoons, you have to have the lock on the door because those raccoons have those impossible thumbs.

Farmer Fred:

[4:51] And probably a pass key.

Debbie Flower:

[4:52] Yes. They have a locksmith somewhere that will make you one. For the tree squirrels, ground squirrels, and she doesn't say if she's got tree squirrels or ground squirrels. I assume it's tree squirrels because they're getting into a tree, into a persimmon. But ground squirrels do have the ability to climb some trunks.

Farmer Fred:

[5:12] And dig.

Debbie Flower:

[5:13] Yes, and dig. So, right. So, if that's your problem, you're going to have to, if you make this structure, you're going to have to bury the sides of the structure a foot or more under in the ground. And the size of the opening, if it's rats getting in, a smaller opening in the mesh will be needed than if they are not.

Farmer Fred:

[5:32] At least, probably like about a quarter inch or so, maybe half inch, but I would go with the smallest available that you can get because rats can get into a lot of things.

Debbie Flower:

[5:41] Yes, they can. Yes, they can. So I agree. I would go with the quarter inch. If the mesh sleeves work, that's great. They're going to have to be, I assume, closed at the top and the bottom. When I look it up on the computer, I see what looks to me like a cuff of the metal. So it would go all the way around the fruit, but be open at the top and the bottom. And I believe you'd have to close the top and the bottom where the animal would get to the fruit from that opening.

Farmer Fred:

[6:11] Guess what I found at the dollar store yesterday.

Debbie Flower:

[6:14] Oh, tell me. It's always fun there.

Farmer Fred:

[6:16] Yes, it is. It's cramped. This was actually a hint that Sacramento County Master Gardener Gail Pothouer passed on to me because she was so excited after she got back from the store and found these. And it is perfect for protecting young transplants that are no more than eight inches tall. And for $1.25, it's a wire mesh wastebasket.

Debbie Flower:

[6:42] Uh-huh.

Farmer Fred:

[6:43] And so the openings are very small.

Debbie Flower:

[6:45] Uh-huh.

Farmer Fred:

[6:46] And you just plop that over the plant until the plant is bigger.

Farmer Fred:

[6:50] And usually after a plant is bigger, it can take a little bit of damage.

Debbie Flower:

[6:53] Yes, right.

Farmer Fred:

[6:54] My problem right now with my greens are peacocks.

Debbie Flower:

[6:59] Oh, my goodness.

Farmer Fred:

[7:01] I know. It's weird. But apparently there's a flock of peacocks in the neighborhood, and they just go from yard to yard. And they just ravaged my romaine lettuce.

Debbie Flower:

[7:10] Oh, wow.

Farmer Fred:

[7:11] Now, fortunately, my dogs are cross-trained for control methods. And I taught them a long time ago that if I yell out the word, they're not around, are they? If I yell out the word “squirrel” and yell it loud, they'll run down the stairs, go out the dog door, and run to the fence. Well, I decided to try that for the peacocks. I did. I just said, “squirrel”. And they ran outside. And I saw the peacocks eating my Romaine, which is near the fence. And the dogs made a beeline for the fence. And then they saw the peacocks. And they go, whoa.

Debbie Flower:

[7:47] Yeah, peacocks are pretty big. 

Farmer Fred:

[7:49] But they were barking, And that scared the peacocks. And they're not the greatest flyers in the world.

Debbie Flower:

[7:53] Right.

Farmer Fred:

[7:54] But they can fly enough to get over the fence and go into the next yard. And that's what they did, except for one who decided to fly up and stay on the roof and just make noise.

Debbie Flower:

[8:03] Oh, boy. Yeah, I'm aware of places that have dogs to keep geese away. And geese, I'm not aware of them ravaging gardens, but they are not wanted because of what they leave behind.

Farmer Fred:

[8:16] Yeah, yeah. And I'm not surprised at that either. But yeah, I think if there are greens… Look, that's a hummingbird outside our window  going after an abutilon flower.

Debbie Flower:

[8:25] Oh, I see that.

Farmer Fred:

[8:25] But I've seen little birds. You see that little cage beyond the abutilon plant? It's a repurposed tomato cage that is supporting a snow pea plant.  And I've seen little birds just perch on that tomato cage and start picking at the leaves.

Debbie Flower:

[8:41] Oh.

Farmer Fred:

[8:42] But I'm not too worried about that because they're just going after the leaves and aren't going after the peas. and they take such a small amount, it's no big deal.

Debbie Flower:

[8:48] Yeah, we got to live and let live.

Farmer Fred:

[8:51] Yeah, in a lot of cases. But if it comes to squirrels and raccoons, as in this case here with Katie, yeah, that metal protection may be necessary. My advice would be you really do want to follow the instructions of backyard orchard culture, where you keep the tree no taller than you can reach.

Debbie Flower:

[9:10] Right, right. And if you're going to throw something over it, the trees need to even be shorter.

Farmer Fred:

[9:14] And if you're going to throw something over it, it needs to reach the ground.

Debbie Flower:

[9:18] Yes, it does, because they'll just go right underneath it. Yeah. There are chemical repellents advertised for squirrels and more. I can't say I've ever seen one for raccoons, but to keep squirrels away. And in general, they don't work.

Farmer Fred:

[9:32] Oh, they'll work for one time. For a week.

Debbie Flower:

[9:35] Right, right. There is actually some bird seed you can buy that is covered with capsaicin, which is the hot stuff in hot peppers. and that birds cannot detect the capsaicin, but squirrels can. But the little I could find of people, it was all anecdotal, reporting how it worked. They said, like Fred said, it only worked for a while. And then there were some squirrels that seemed to really like it, and kept coming back.

Farmer Fred:

[10:04] Yeah, they can adapt if they're hungry enough. What we're talking about applies to deer as well.  And one of the strategies for controlling deer, besides, you know, building a prison for your garden, is to have a trap crop outside that they're going to prefer to what is inside. So if you can keep them outside and occupy them with the foods they really like, is that really a good idea or are you just attracting more deer?

Debbie Flower:

[10:30] Right. Vineyard owners I know who I discussed deer with said that it's really a problem when they come around regularly because then they move their family in and they have their babies there and then their babies grow up and they bring their family. And so you end up having A herd of Deer on your property.

Farmer Fred:

[10:49] But it's worth a try.

Debbie Flower:

[10:51] Yeah, a trap crop went through my mind for the squirrels and the raccoons. But anything that would be a trap crop is probably something you would want to eat too. Yeah. And so why do you want to give it up?

Farmer Fred:

[11:02] Yeah, you wouldn't. But, you know, when you're desperate…

Debbie Flower:

[11:06] All right. People also mention physical distractions like things that move, flashing tape, water that turns on when the animals come near the area, noises. but they work kind of like the chemical repellents. They work for a day or so and then they're not good. The animals are smart and they figure it out.

Farmer Fred:

[11:30] Yeah, it's a hard, hard world that we live in when it comes to growing your own food. We I used to live in an area surrounded by vineyards and flash tape, which was good for about a couple of weeks. So  the farmers would delay putting out that flash tape - that looks like fire from a distance to the birds - until they were about two weeks out away from harvest. And that kept the birds away because the winds were variable. So, sometimes it was very active, the blowing aluminum foil, basically. And sometimes there wasn't. But they figured it takes the birds about two weeks, a little bit more than two weeks, to realize that they're not going to be hurt by this. The same is true for all of those farmers who in their fields put in loudspeakers where they would blast the sound of gunfire at irregular intervals. Again, it works for a couple of weeks.

Debbie Flower:

[12:26] Right.

Farmer Fred:

[12:26] Until the crows figure out, there's nothing going on here.

Debbie Flower:

[12:29] Right. Or it's a recording of a crow in distress so that they think somebody's, yeah. If you can attract predators, that does deter squirrels. So predators being an owl, if you put up an owl box. However, owls are active at night and squirrels are active during the day. So I'm not sure how effective that would ultimately be for squirrels.

Farmer Fred:

[12:51] I think owls would only go after baby raccoons.

Debbie Flower:

[12:56] The raccoons can get huge.

Farmer Fred:

[12:58] Yeah, so that wouldn't work. But on the other hand, those owl boxes can be effective in attracting owls will go after the rats.

Debbie Flower:

[13:07] Yes, which are a nighttime problem. Yes.

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BATTLING FOUR-LEGGED FRUIT TREE PESTS, Pt. 2

Farmer Fred

[14:26] Which brings us to the second question here. It’s from Carla, who wants to know about roof rats. And I asked her in a reply, I said, do you find that these roof rats, once they have stripped a tree of fruit, that it moves on to the next tree that has fruit? And she says, yes! Carla wrote, “We planted our food forest, backyard orchard culture style, with 20 different fruit trees, all chosen for succession ripening. Yep, rats ate one tree's fruit, then moved on to the next as the fruit came in. We produced a lot of fruit this year, and we were able to harvest maybe 10% of it since it was all gone before it was riped. I harvested the pomegranate way too early because the rodents had already eaten half the fruit on the tree. Pomegranates don't taste very good this year.” So what she wants, what Carla wants, are tips for what to put in rat traps. “I suspect”, she says, “we are doing the best we can since the rats are smart. Cheese worked, then it didn't. Peanut butter worked, then it didn't. Hamburger never worked. Thank you for your timely topics,” says Carla. 

On the Garden Basics newsletter called Beyond the Garden Basics that you can refer to online at substack.com slash gardenbasics, I have a post there about this very subject of who's eating my persimmons and popcorn. The rats were eating my popcorn last year.

Debbie Flower:

[15:52] Oh, wow. I read about them eating sweet corn and wondered about your popcorn.

Farmer Fred:

[15:58] They attacked it before it had probably hardened off to them.

Debbie Flower:

[16:02] Yes, because it would be very, very hard if it was in the pop stage.

Farmer Fred:

[16:05] But I was amazed because I was just peeling back one of the husks just to see how the corn was developing. and it wasn't there. So I peeled it back a little bit more. Hmm, that's missing too. So they had harvested the corn before I even had a chance to get into it. And you could see where they had munched through on the outside. So yeah, you touch my popcorn, you're going to be a dead rat.

Debbie Flower:

[16:31] Well, I was out of town for a couple of days and I do have a cat. I'd bring her in at night, But the house sitter isn't always successful about that. And while we were away, my cat caught two rats.  Brought them home. Both dead. One was just decapitated, placed that head right on the little rug, whiskers sticking out to the side, eyes wide open, and the torso was a few feet away.  My house sitter sent me pictures. 

Farmer Fred:

[17:03] Well, it's better than our cat that will bring a rat in alive and then let it go, just to watch me run around.

Debbie Flower:

[17:11] Yes, I've had that happen, too. So Carla is using snap traps, and they are the most effective at trapping and killing rats. I have had the same experience of the cat bringing one in and it getting away, and it got in the laundry room and in that little place in the wall where the water drains out. You put the hose in there and that was behind the machine. And as soon as we went in the laundry room, it would jump behind the machine and we couldn't get to the rat. So we had to put in the snap traps. Snap traps need to be perpendicular to like the wall or the fence. These animals use their whiskers to detect the wall or the fence or whatever it is they're walking past. And so that puts them out a certain distance from it. and then they find the bait in the trap and stop and eat it. And if it's set, it snaps typically on their neck. So it's very effective at a quick kill. They are very, very smart though. Rats are very, very smart. And so you need to put the traps out with the bait on them.

Farmer Fred

[18:18] And let the rat find it.

Debbie Flower:

[18:21]  do it for a couple of days.

Farmer Fred:

[18:23] And not set.

Debbie Flower:

[18:24] And not set. Yes, thank you. That's crucial. Yeah. Not set. So then the rat will find it and will become comfortable with it. And then on the third day, you set it and the rat goes back and finds it. As for what to put in it, yes, peanut butter, cheese. Maybe what they're, if they're outdoors, maybe what they're going after. Maybe a little persimmon or something. You know, if that's what's attracting them. I read bacon, too. I have never put bacon in a rat trap, and I don't know if it needs to be cooked.

Farmer Fred:

[18:52] Yeah, that would be my question. Maybe it wouldn't matter to them one way or the other. You got to be really careful if you're using commercial bait for rats, if it's even still available. Right. Because a lot of it has been outlawed because of the secondary effects. The rat eats the poison, and then a predator eats the rat. Right. And that predator could be your pet.

Debbie Flower:

[19:16] Right. And it gets poisoned. And as a result, it ends up at the vet, maybe to live, maybe not. So, yes, that's very critical. I would avoid that. You can buy the enclosed boxes with the rodenticide is what it's called, the poison in it. And they'll go in there and eat it. And it's typically something that causes them to bleed out, correct?

Farmer Fred:

[19:38] I think that active ingredient has changed. That would be an anticoagulant.

Debbie Flower:

[19:42] Right.

Farmer Fred:

[19:43] And I think...

Debbie Flower:

[19:45] They're not available anymore.

Farmer Fred:

[19:47] That's not available. I'll have to look that up.

(NOTE: California Governor Gavin Newsom approved on Sept. 25, 2024 an amendment to AB 2552, a law that prohibits the use of second-generation anticoagulant rodenticides with some exceptions. Now, the bill prohibits the use of chlorophacinone or warfarin, and considers these active ingredients “restricted materials.” https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2024-10-01/california-enacts-unprecedented-ban-on-rat-poisons/

Debbie Flower:

[19:49] Yeah, it's just risky. If it's not your cat, maybe it's the local fox or, you know, some desirable possums. Possums are great at insect control in the yard, and they don't attack you and they don't bite you. They're very calm animals. But if they were to get some of that rodenticide in them, then you'd be killing them. And that's, gee, we don't want to kill anything we don't need to kill.

Farmer Fred:

[20:16] One of the active ingredients currently in rat poisons is bromethalin, which is a powerful rodenticide that can kill rodents in a single feeding. It's not an anticoagulant like most rodenticides. Another one is bromadiolone, which is a key ingredient in some rodenticide baits that can kill rodents within 24 hours. And then there's another ingredient, and I'll probably mispronounce it, rodificom, which is a common active ingredient in rodenticides that prevents blood clotting and causes internal bleeding. It has a delayed effect, so rodents may continue to eat the bait. So there's that. And there's another one called diphandione, which is a first-generation anticoagulant used to control rodents in California, including ground squirrels and  meadow voles, too. The internal bleeding one, that might be the defatholone, which reduces clotting activity and causes internal bleeding. It has a delicate aroma that rodents find attractive.

 And there are some others, too, like zinc phosphide, colosacalciferol, also known as activated vitamin D3. This is one of the most potent rat and mouse poisons. It can cause life-threatening elevations in blood calcium and kidney failure. I'll repeat that word for you, colocalciferol. Good luck. As of January 1st, 2024, most uses of difascinone are prohibited in California. Most products containing difascinone must be sold by licensed dealers. So it really depends where you live, what you can use.

Debbie Flower:

[21:54] Right. And some of those that you listed would still potentially be a problem to non-target organisms. So things other than what we want to kill with it.

Farmer Fred:

[22:05] What is it we always say? Oh, read and follow all label directions. This would very much apply when setting out bait traps. But again, if you're doing the snap traps, there are common ingredients that may be used.

Debbie Flower:

[22:18] Well, the bait needs to be something that attracts the thing you're trying to get. There are rat traps, which are pretty big. They're probably eight inches by four inches or so. And then there are mouse traps, which are much smaller. They're about four inches by two inches. And so you have to use the right snap trap, the one that will get your pest. I had one in a greenhouse, a school where I was working a rat, that is, and I sent the rat trap. And, you know, the couple of days and the bait was gone. So it was being found. It was being eaten. And then I set, put the bait out and set the trap. And the next day I couldn't find the trap. Eventually I found a dead rat attached to the trap in the place where we stored unused containers. So it had been hit by the snap trap and not killed immediately and dragged the trap away. So, if you can anchor the trap in some way, that's desirable.

Farmer Fred:

[23:18] That is also advice for controlling gophers. If you have a gopher problem and you're using underground traps, one suggestion is to anchor it in the soil because if it's too small of a trap, they might be trapped, but they can drag it with them.

Debbie Flower:

[23:30] Right.

Farmer Fred:

[23:31] And so, you don't want them to do that. So, if you ask your local computer, who probably has some sort of artificial intelligence, What are some common foods to use as bait for rat traps? They will say what we've been talking about. Cheese, peanut butter, bacon, fruits, meat, especially fresher canned tuna. And the one we left out that is probably the most common available is pet food.

Debbie Flower:

[23:58] Yeah.

Farmer Fred:

[23:58] They like pet food.

Debbie Flower:

[23:59] And that brings them around. If you're feeding feral cats or your house pet, outdoors or whatever, that food, if it's still around after the pet has finished eating, will attract rats, mice, all kinds of raccoons, all kinds of other animals.

Farmer Fred:

[24:21] Now, what about some of these so-called deterrents? So, one day I lost my internet. Bear with me on this story.

Debbie Flower:

[24:30] All right.

Farmer Fred:

[24:30]  The internet was getting wonky. It was dropping a lot. And I got a call from the local Provider, who basically said, we need to come out and check your house. There's signal loss going on somewhere in your house. Okay, fine. They came out. They followed it to where the cable was going into the house, which was going through a vent, you know, one of those screened vents that you have for ventilation. And when they installed it, I guess the installer made just a slightly bigger hole to pass the wire through. so the rat, according to the guy that came out to repair it, found that portion of the cable had been chewed through, trying to get into that space. the rat figured okay if I chew on this cable that'll give me more room to get inside. they are smart. well yeah. so they  were chewing through the rubber casing and some of the wires were frayed and so yeah that would be a lack of signal, a loss of signal, and then he said okay,  the cure for this - like I'm going to take pest advice from a cable guy - but it might work. I tried it. He said, get triple zero steel wool and fill that gap where this cable is coming in and then coat that steel wool with rosemary oil because rats don't like the odor of rosemary oil.

Debbie Flower:

[26:01] I didn't know that.

Farmer Fred:

[26:01] Well, I didn't know that either. And how long is that going to last?

Debbie Flower:

[26:04] Right.

Farmer Fred:

[26:05] Okay. So, it turns out, you know, you can actually buy sprays with scented oils for that very purpose.

Farmer Fred:

[26:16] If you go to Your hardware store, go to the rat aisle, you'll find it there. And it's a combination of rosemary and cinnamon, I think. And, well, to make a long story short, or at least a little bit shorter, the signal's fine now with the internet.

Debbie Flower:

[26:31] And you did put the steel wool in there.

Farmer Fred:

[26:33] When I bought triple zero steel wool, which is a very fine steel wool, which I have actually found many more uses for that work just fine. But yeah,  you have to go out and check and make sure that that piece of steel wool hasn't fallen out of the vent or they've pushed it through or whatever. But that is, let's just say, a clinch point, a cinch, a narrow point where rats can get very active.

 Another bait for mousetraps are seeds and nuts that are coated in a small amount of chocolate.  According to Google AI.

Debbie Flower:

[27:12] They would be a little difficult to attach to a snap trap.

Farmer Fred:

[27:15] And they say, though, to avoid using bait that is too sticky or gooey as it may not trigger the trap.

Debbie Flower:

[27:20] Oh, I've had luck with peanut butter myself with the rats.

Farmer Fred:

[27:24] Chunky or smooth?

Debbie Flower:

[27:27] Whatever we have around. I'm a smooth peanut butter eater and my husband is a chunky. Both? Yeah, we have both in the house. All right. The other thing to consider about rats is where they nest. And here in California, a very common ground cover and vine for your fence is ivy. Hedera, the genus, or Hedera canaryensis, either one. Algerian ivy. Yes. And once it gets a hold and either grows a ground cover or growing up the fence, it gets thicker and thicker and thicker. And that is where rats live around here. And so that's a problem. I went by a landscape once. I think I was doing consulting at the time and they had rats and they wanted to know how to get rid of them. They probably ended up in the roof. They had cut all the tall plants down, but their whole yard was covered in about a foot deep of this ivy and that's where they're nesting. I had it in the classroom where I taught that there was a hedge along the side of the building and then there was a whole hill covered in about a foot deep of this ivy and they came and took the shrub out, but that did nothing. You have to cut the ivy back and make it thin.

Farmer Fred:

[28:40] Unlike the ivy at Wrigley Field in Chicago, ivy in California stays green year round.

Debbie Flower:

[28:46] Yes, it does.

Farmer Fred:

[28:47] It doesn't die back. It's not a deciduous plant.

Debbie Flower:

[28:49] Right.

Farmer Fred:

[28:50] And there's a lot of homes that have some sort of covering on fences and walls that are evergreen year round, and those are highly suspect.

Debbie Flower:

[29:01] Right. That's where a lot of these rodents live. So be aware that a buildup of plant material that stays green year-round will... be a likely place that they're nesting and that just cutting it down with a weed whacker or a mower, if you've got a strong mower, will make them move out.

Farmer Fred:

[29:23] Just to go back to the snap trap thing briefly is we should emphasize the fact you don't want to put desirable baits on snap traps where it's easily available for your pets.

Debbie Flower:

[29:34] Right. Or small children. So the cat food could be a problem.

Farmer Fred:

[29:37] Yeah, unless you're putting it in a place where the cat can't get. But I have yet to find a place where a cat can't get to.

Debbie Flower:

[29:44] Right, right. But you'd hate to come out the next day and find a cat's tongue snapped off.

Farmer Fred:

[29:50] Yeah, yeah. I'm sure the cat would tell you about it. But, yeah, so snap traps have, you know, good points, bad points as well. Also, too, remember how these rats are getting from tree to tree. They could be using, as you mentioned, the fence line. But they could also be going via branches of the tree.

Debbie Flower

[30:09] Yes.

Farmer Fred:

[30:10] And so you want to keep the tree trimmed. Again, this is the other reason for backyard orchard culture and keeping a tree at a height you can only reach to, so maybe six feet or so, is that lessens the amount of home space for a rat. Because they don't want to be seen.

Debbie Flower:

[30:27] Right.

Farmer Fred:

[30:27] So if it's not so thick that you can't see them.

Debbie Flower

[30:32] Could be a home for them.

Farmer Fred:

[30:33] I found a rat in the persimmon tree, for instance.

Debbie Flower:

[30:36] Oh, a nest?

Farmer Fred:

[30:37] Well, it was… okay, here’s a rat story. This was just a few months ago. This was back at persimmon harvest time, right before harvest time. I was just waiting for them to get a little bit soft before I harvested the Fuyu persimmons. But then I saw some little gnaw marks on the fruits. I go, okay, we got to get out of here and start harvesting the fruit. We can let it ripen inside, not a problem. All right. So we're out there, we're picking all the fruits, snipping it off. And at one point where I went to grab a branch, I saw something jump out of the tree and it hit the ground. And then the dog, good old Salty the dog, took off running after whatever just jumped out. And after I was done harvesting, I went to find the dog and the dog was just happy as can be, playing with a dead rat, over on the side, not chewing on it, thank goodness, but just  probably crunched it to death right and it was dead but, Salty did the job yeah good old Salty of getting that rat out of the tree. Now  I didn't see a nest in there, so that's good yeah.

Debbie Flower:

[31:44] That is good. But the fact that they were in there during the day would indicate to me that's where they were resting. that it was a secure enough place, so they were not being seen by a hawk that might fly by and say, oh, there's dinner.

Farmer Fred:

[31:57] Well, this goes back to Debbie Flower Theorem Number One, which is walk your garden every day. Yeah. And yeah, check those trees, check those plants. Look around, spread some branches apart. Take a look.

Debbie Flower:

[32:10] Yep.

Farmer Fred:

[32:11] Shake some things.

Debbie Flower:

[32:12] Yep.

Farmer Fred:

[32:12] If it falls, it might be a rat. Yeah, exactly. Just what you want to do. All right. Well, Carla, I hope that helps you out there with controlling rats and mice. And that was a lot of stuff. Debbie, thanks for your pest control help.

Debbie Flower:

[32:29] Oh, my pleasure, Fred. Thank you.

BEYOND THE GARDEN BASICS NEWSLETTER

Farmer Fred:

[32:33] Sharp-eyed listeners, if there is such a thing, may have noticed that in our segment about controlling the four-legged pests of persimmon trees, we failed to answer one of the listeners' questions that was thrown in as an aside to her main question. Katie had written in and said, So when the persimmon tree we've waited on for nine years to fruit, and it finally did get fruit in years six, seven, and eight, but they all dropped, was it due to overwatering or underwatering? When those said persimmons developed abundant fruit this year and it began to ripen, I decided to try to ward off the squirrels with the stainless steel fruit sleeves. Well, Debbie Flower and I immediately delved into pest control techniques for persimmons, but totally overlooked her question about the fallen fruit and watering. Thus, the purpose of this week's edition of the Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter. Find out more about persimmons and their care, as well as storage tips, in this week's Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter and podcast. It's entitled Persimmon Tips from the Pros. Find a link to that edition in today's show notes or at our website, GardenBasics.net or at Substack. It's free.

Farmer Fred:

[33:52] Garden Basics with Farmer Fred comes out every Friday, and it's brought to you by Dave Wilson Nursery. Garden Basics is available wherever podcasts are handed out. For more information about the podcast as well as an accurate transcript of the podcast, visit our website, gardenbasics.net . And thank you so much for listening and your support.