352 Mint Choices for Cooking. All About Zinnias.

Show Transcript

352 Mint, Zinnias TRANSCRIPT

Farmer Fred

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Farmer Fred

Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener, or you want good gardening information, you've come to the right spot.

Farmer Fred

What are the best mint varieties to use for cooking? We talk with a professional herb grower about the myriad of culinary herb choices available. Is there a better summer flower than Zinnias? This colorful warm weather annual comes in a wide variety of sizes, colors, and flower shapes…and it makes for a great cut flower, too! America’s Favorite Retired College Horticultural Professor, Debbie Flower talks zinnias, along with cut flower care so that they can last a long time indoors.

We’re podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory. It’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots, Dave Wilson Nursery, and Heirloom Roses. Let’s go!

WHICH IS THE BEST MINT VARIETY TO GROW FOR COOKING?

Farmer Fred

We're at Harvest Day at the Fair Oak Horticulture Center on this Saturday in early August. Yesterday, my wife asked me a question. She was preparing dinner. She had a recipe, and she said, “Do we have any mint?” And I said, “we got basil”. “No”, she said emphatically. “I want mint”. Well, there's a lot of mint. Which mint do you want? And she said, “I don't know.” But you're using it for cooking, right? Yep, she said. All right. So my question of the day here at the Fair Oaks Horticulture Center is, which mint is the best for cooking? Let's talk with Rose Loveall-Sale  of Morningsun Herb Farm in Vacaville. That would give you a big clue as far as what she does. How many kinds of mint are there that you could choose from? How many do you stock?

Rose Loveall-Sale

Well, Fred, that's kind of a loaded question. I stock about 25 kinds of mint through the year. So just asking me what the best one for cooking is not really a fair question. That is in itself, a question that I have to ask you about 12 questions back. So it depends what you're cooking. Are you cooking a savory dish or a sweet dish, would be my number one question.

Farmer Fred

I think it was a sweet dish because it was basically tilapia and tomatoes from the garden, and the tomatoes were cherry tomatoes, so they were on the sweet side. So overall, I would say the sauce and whatever, and it was, it was kind of sweet.

Rose Loveall-Sale

But that's still a savory dish. That's not a dessert type of dish.

Farmer Fred

That's correct.

Rose Loveall-Sale

Okay, so I would say for that kind of savory dish, I would be using either a spearmint or maybe one of the fruity kinds of mints, like maybe a pineapple mint or a lime mint or an orange mint, even. So, if I was going to be using one of those kind of mints, I would say spearmint would be the number one of those. However, there's about 12 kinds of spearmint. So the number one spearmint that's used is one that’s called “Kentucky Colonel” spearmint, which has a really large leaf. That would be the number one choice for cooking things, like your primary savory foods. But if you're going to be doing Mediterranean dishes or things like Moroccan food, you would probably use a Moroccan Mint, or even a mojito mint, which would be a little bit more sweet.

Farmer Fred

Sounds like Mojito mint would be for drinks.

Rose Loveall-Sale

Yes, you could use a mojito mint for a Mojito, for example. That would be terrific. But if you're going to be doing,  a watermelon salad, then you could use something like your lime mint, or even maybe a basil mint would be great. Or, yeah, some sort of a fruity mint.

Farmer Fred

If you go online and google that question, which is always a dangerous thing to do, because the answers are all over the place, but apple mint came up a lot.

Rose Loveall-Sale

Apple mint is a great one to use. It's rambunctious in the garden, so you'd want to be careful growing it. They all are, but apple mint in particular. Apple Mint is great because it really has a strong scent and flavor of apple. So it's a good fruity mint to start with, because you really get that flavor of Apple in it.

Farmer Fred

As a child, my punishment on a regular basis, if I did something wrong, was to  go out in the backyard and start clearing out the mint because, as you said, it's rambunctious. So I would think one rule of growing mint is keep it in containers.

Rose Loveall-Sale

Grow your mint in containers, and not a container in the middle of your garden, but a container that's actually sitting on rock or on concrete or a wood deck, not in the middle of the actual garden. Because all it takes is one little piece to hit the ground and it will reroot itself.

Farmer Fred

And I would imagine if roots escape from the bottom of the container too, it would take over.

Rose Loveall-Sale

Same thing, and they will escape even out those tiny, tiny, little quarter inch holes on the bottom of the container.

Farmer Fred

Well, that really throws a big monkey wrench into one piece of advice I read that said, “if you want to plant it in the garden, keep it in a container, but bury the container up to the rim.” And if I do that, it sounds like it's going to take over.

Rose Loveall-Sale

Yeah. It'll take over by escaping out the bottom, and it'll jump through the top too, so that it'll escape two different ways out of your garden,  out of that pot. So don't do that.

Farmer Fred

Any other tips for growing mint?

Rose Loveall-Sale

If it's in a pot, which it should be, you want to harvest it frequently, cut it back frequently, so that you keep the leaves young and tender, so it doesn't get very woody, because it will get  old tasting and very bitter. Also, you want to fertilize it fairly regularly, which you don't normally think of doing with most of your herbs. And also, every year, pull it out of the pot, pull it apart, throw out the middle part, which gets very old tasting and old growing, and then just reroot the parts that are along the edge, and give some to your friends and some to your enemies, and then regrow part of it for yourself.

Farmer Fred

Okay, that sounds like a plan. In reading about it, it sounds like it can go in full sun or part shade, but I think in our hot climate, maybe part shade would be better.

Rose Loveall-Sale

Part shade is easier to grow, less water use, and the flavor will be superior.

Farmer Fred

Rose Loveall-Sale is with Morningsun Herb Farm. She's on Pleasants Valley Road in Vacaville. Visit their website, morningsunherbfarm.com. That's a lot of great mint advice Rose. Thank you.

Rose Loveall-Sale

You're very welcome, Fred, thank you.

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ALL ABOUT ZINNIAS, Pt. 1

Farmer Fred

Debbie Flower is here, America's favorite retired college horticultural professor. And Debbie, I thought I would brighten up in here, besides the view to the Abutilon jungle from Barking Dog Studios, I brought in some zinnias and put them in  little vases. I love to grow zinnias in the summertime. They make such a beautiful cut flower. And the two zinnia varieties here is my idea of humor. It's a movie title. I'm letting people guess.

Debbie Flower

Okay. All right.

Farmer Fred

No, it's Crouching Tiger and Hidden Dragon. So there.

Debbie Flower

Very good.

Farmer Fred

Yes, zinnias are a native of the Western Hemisphere, of the Americas. They're relatively heat and drought tolerant.  And what's interesting, according to Johnny Seeds, and they sell a heck of a lot of zinnias, the greatest profusion of blooms occurs when day length is less than 12 hours, but they will flower regardless of photoperiod length.  So I guess here in July and August, the best is yet to come because we're still at a little over 12 hours of daylight per day.

Debbie Flower

Yes, we are.

Farmer Fred

So it'll continue its bloom long after summer goes away.

Debbie Flower

Right.

Farmer Fred

If the weather cooperates.

Debbie Flower

Right. If it stays warm enough.  They're such happy flowers. They're so colorful. They come in almost every color of the rainbow. They come in different sizes, different types of petal arrangements. There's a lot to offer.

Farmer Fred

Small flowers, big flowers, pom-pom-type flowers, daisy-like flowers, several rows of petals, too. Like, one of my favorites is Zowie Yellow Flame, which is, to me, one of the most perfect cut flowers, too. It's a good size for really small vases, too.

Debbie Flower

Yeah, this is... Crouching tiger, hidden dragon, these two vases are petite and the flowers look great.

Farmer Fred

So far, so good. Yep. When is the best time to pick zinnias, if you're going to bring them indoors?

Debbie Flower

During cool weather.

Farmer Fred

So in the morning.

Debbie Flower

In the morning. And that's true of a lot of flowers. I actually use that as a rule of thumb for picking flowers off of anything, because I like to do it in the morning.

Debbie Flower

Plants make their own food and then it travels around in the plant. And they'll make hay while the sun shines, basically. They'll do lots of making of plant food when the sun is up and will spend less time moving that food around in the evening and night when there is less or no light. They will move the food to parts of the plant that need it. And flowers that are not green are not making their own food. And so they have to get it from the rest of the plant. And so they'll be most full of plant food in the morning after the plant has had a chance to move that food into them.

Debbie Flower

And so as a cut flower, they will last longer.

Farmer Fred

Well, we're going to go on a scenic bypass right here.

Debbie Flower

All right.

Farmer Fred

What you were describing, you could have used the phrase food packets.

Debbie Flower

Okay.

Farmer Fred

And you mentioned that back in episode 339, and you mentioned food packets in plants. And I made a note to myself, “ask Debbie what a food packet is”.

Debbie Flower

A food packet is just a bunch of plant food that the plant has made. The plant takes sun and water and oxygen and then converts it to carbohydrates. And it's a molecule. The carbohydrate is made up of molecules. So a food packet is a molecule of carbohydrate that can move around the plant. Parts of the plant don't make food. And those are the roots. and then things like the flowers and the fruit that are not green. And they depend on the rest of the plant, the green parts, to make the food for them. And then they receive the carbohydrate molecules as food packets.

Farmer Fred

By the way, it's episode 339 that she's talking about food packets. You would never know by the title, which is why these scenic bypasses can be confusing sometimes. Episode 339 is entitled, “How to water clay soil”, so somehow you worked in food packets.

Debbie Flower

yeah, I'm always thinking about stuff like that.

Farmer Fred

Okay all right so Episode 339, which is again entitled, “How to water clay soil and more clay gardening tips” and i guess food packets is part of that, don't ask me why. So you cut zinnias in the morning. Zinnias perform best, i would imagine, at least in my experience, where they get full sun.

Debbie Flower

Right. Yeah.

Farmer Fred

They're a full sun plant.

Debbie Flower

Yes, they are.

Farmer Fred

And apparently they can take the heat too. Because I noticed in these barrels out there that you can see, where I grew one tomato plant, which has already died and I yanked it, but that was part of the plan anyway. I've got popcorn growing there now. And in the third barrel, I've got zinnias. And I planted more there because that was also the barrel where I had the Bush Early Girl tomato plant growing. That did what it was supposed to do. It gave me an early crop of tomatoes and then went, “ka-thunk!” when the weather got to 100 degrees.

Debbie Flower

That's a good thing to do. I still have the bush early girl in the ground and we had 111 or more last week. And the fruit fried. So, yeah, get it out before it hits 100.

Farmer Fred

Yeah. And so, I planted more zinnias in the barrel, because, why not?

Debbie Flower

And earlier today, I was watching a hummingbird visit them.

Farmer Fred

Good.

Debbie Flower

Which is lots of fun. Yep, yep.

Farmer Fred

That, to me, maybe it's because I don't like moving as much as I used to,  I just like to stare at plants now. And one of my favorite California natives to stare at on a warm summer day is the California buckwheat, the Eriogonum. Eriogonum fasciculatum, I believe it is, is the California buckwheat. And just the amazing number of pollinators and beneficials that visit that plant. All the different varieties of bees, species of bees, and other critters that are there. It's just amazing what a peaceful world they all live in that they can share that territory.

Debbie Flower

Right. Yes.

Farmer Fred

That's what always has amazed me about the insect world is there isn't that much selfishness going on. They don't mind sharing.

Debbie Flower

Yeah.

Farmer Fred

That's my thought for the day.

Debbie Flower

Wish we were more like them. Reminds me of the 10 days or so I spent in South Africa. And, you know, we've seen a lot of the animals that we see wild in South Africa. We've seen them in zoos. And, you know, the zebras are in one place and giraffes are in one place. But the animals, when allowed to mix, you'll have a group of zebras mixed with a group of ostrich or something. And that just struck me as, oh my gosh, I never thought of this before. Same thing with the insects.

Farmer Fred

Right.

Debbie Flower

They hang around peacefully together.

Farmer Fred

It reminded me of a local story that made the news about a donkey that disappeared from its home in the foothills northeast of Sacramento  outside Auburn. And the donkey disappeared. And somebody found the donkey five years later, living with a tribe of elk. Or a group of elk.

Debbie Flower

Well, that's nice. Yeah.

Farmer Fred

So we can all get along.

Debbie Flower

Yes, we can. We should try harder to do that.

Farmer Fred

Meanwhile, back in Zinnia land, they like well-drained soil, rich in organic matter. There are very few plants that don't like soil rich in organic matter. And a low pH, 6.0 to 6.5. Which surprised me.

Debbie Flower

Well, that doesn't surprise me. I think your view on pH depends on where you first learned about it. I first learned about it on the East Coast in New Jersey, which got 43 inches of rain, and lots of rain tends to lower natural pH. And so I was taught in my horticulture classes at Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey, that 5.5 to 6.5 is what we should strive for in our pH in our garden. Then I moved to California and I got my master's degree in horticulture and I'm told, no, it’s seven. It's got to be seven. So there's a range in there that works.

Farmer Fred

Or it's plants that can adapt. Yes.

Debbie Flower

There are plants for all of those pHs, yes. Yeah.

Farmer Fred

So whatever. Anyway, avoid overhead irrigation as it may damage the flowers by causing spotting or may splash soil onto the foliage and promote disease.

Farmer Fred

Drip irrigation is recommended. I don't like the idea of using plastic mulch to increase soil temperatures but that's what Johnny’s Seeds suggested.

Debbie Flower

I don't either. But in places where you wanted to grow these, perhaps in Alaska, you could. But you'd have to wait a really long time for the soil to naturally warm up.

Farmer Fred

So in that case…

Debbie Flower

Use season extenders. That’s  a big topic in a cold place like that.

Farmer Fred

“Support is not necessary in higher latitude locations as the plant height remains moderate in height.” what i owe that to is that statement earlier that Johnny's had, about it doesn't tend to flower in periods of 12 hours or more and what do you have up in Alaska right now it's out till 11 p.m. So maybe that's interesting. Go figure. “A layer of horizontal support may be necessary to keep stems upright in long-season areas and areas with high wind and rain”. So plant them on a trellis or a tomato cage.

Debbie Flower

Yeah, a tomato cage, yeah.

Farmer Fred

Yeah, I like the idea of these alleged tomato cages that they sell at the big box stores. The little ones. The little ones.

Debbie Flower

It won't hold a tomato plant.

Farmer Fred

I call them pepper cages, but it'd be perfect for a large zinnia.

Debbie Flower

Yes.

Farmer Fred

So there's that.

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ALL ABOUT ZINNIAS, Pt. 2

Farmer Fred

Let’s get back to our conversation with America’s Favorite Retired College Horticulture Professor, Debbie Flower. We’re talking zinnias. Johnny's recommends for an extended harvest and a constant supply of fresh blooms. So plant every two weeks through early summer.

Debbie Flower

And that's something I need to get better about is succession planting. If I were in the business of selling cut flowers, you would absolutely have to do that. So you have something in bloom all the time.

Farmer Fred

They like to be germinating when the soil is at least 70 degrees, you plant two seeds per foot in rows 9 to 12 inches on center and cover lightly but firmly with soil, but you would do it differently.

Debbie Flower

I wouldn't, if it was fresh seed, I wouldn't plant the two seeds.

Farmer Fred

What if it was stale seed?

Debbie Flower

Well, I'd come in and plant it later.

Farmer Fred

I thought you might mention vermiculite.

Debbie Flower

Oh, yes. Well, I do put vermiculite on top of it, yes.  So I know where the seeds are and it holds moisture. Right.

Farmer Fred

. And around here, you can start them this time of year outdoors and they'd be fine at night.

Debbie Flower

because our nighttime temperatures.

Farmer Fred

Are always above 50. I wish they would be below 70.

Debbie Flower

Right.

Farmer Fred

I know you people on the East Coast are laughing at us right now.

Debbie Flower

Yes, they're in a heat wave.

Farmer Fred

And their nighttime temperatures are very seldom under 70 in the summertime.

Debbie Flower

My family back there would say, “now don't open the windows overnight. It doesn't get that cool.”

Farmer Fred

There's no Delta breeze in New Jersey.

Debbie Flower

Right.

Farmer Fred

All right. Okay. What is interesting, too, about zinnias, too, if you buy them in a six-pack or in a four-inch pot at the nursery, “do not allow plants to become root-bound and do not disturb roots. Transplant shock may cause doubles to revert back to singles”.

Debbie Flower

I have had some trouble transplanting zinnias. Sometimes it goes just fine and sometimes not. And now I'm realizing it's probably because of the age of the plant. Somewhat like a zucchini. If it stays too long in the pot, in the little pot, then it's done for.

Farmer Fred

I guess a couple of diseases that are specific issues include powdery mildew. But, you know, what else gets powdery mildew? A lot of things. Begonias and other flowers in the aster family.

Debbie Flower

But the powdery mildew that gets a begonia would be different species than the powdery mildew that gets a zinnia.

Farmer Fred

Right. Right. Which was always the old joke. The wine grape growers in this region would always try to fool me. I might be talking to some group down  in Lodi, where they grow a lot of grapes, wine grapes. And one of these wisecracking wine grape growers would say, “you know why we plant roses in the rows out front by the road along with the grapes?” And I'd always say, “well, it's because your wife wanted them there.” And that is true. It wasn't to detect disease because... That thought was out there that, well, roses will show powdery mildew before the grapes do and so you can get a head start on your control program. When in reality, it's two different strains of powdery mildew that hit those plants.

Debbie Flower

Right, but once the rose has powdery mildew, then you know the conditions, the temperature and humidity are there that can cause powdery mildew. So it has an inkling.

Farmer Fred

Yeah, a modicum of connection. Right.

Debbie Flower

The other reason I've heard is that they put roses at the end of a row of winegrapes near the road is because the government will come through and spray glyphosate to kill weeds along the side of the road and glyphosate drifts. And roses and grapes are very, very susceptible to glyphosate damage. And so if the rose gets it first, although you're a goner by then, because it's already drifted onto your grapes, but you can, I think, make a case with the government that they messed up your grape orchard. Now, you are allowed to put a sign out that says “no spray”. And so- Some people do that.

Farmer Fred

And some people do that,

Debbie Flower

And apparently they are successful.

Farmer Fred

And some people do their own job of controlling the weeds along the street.

Debbie Flower

So the government doesn't spray. Yeah.

Farmer Fred

And that's probably the best solution of all.

Debbie Flower

Own it.

Farmer Fred

Yeah. And just do it. Alternaria leaf blight. Also another problem with zinnias. That disease likes warm, damp, and high humidity conditions. So if you want to grow zinnias in New Jersey, I guess you have to watch out for that.

Debbie Flower

Right. Space them well. Space them so that the plant can get to its full size, which varies depending on how much you pinch the plant and how much you don't, but without touching another plant on any side.

Farmer Fred

So I mentioned I grow zinnias every year, and I've narrowed it down to the winners and losers over the years because I've been growing zinnias for about 20 years or so. So this year I planted, and they are successful, Zowie Yellow Flame, which is my all-time favorite zinnia, then Granny's Bouquet, which is a mix of some heirloom varieties, varieties. Takii”s Choice Mix, T-A-K-I-I, Takii’s Choice Mix. And the two you see here, Hidden Dragon, well, you at home can't see them, you're there. Debbie can see them.

Debbie Flower

I can see them.

Farmer Fred

Yeah. Hidden Dragon and Crouching Tiger. But there's plenty more that do well. I've been quoting from Johnny's Select Seeds for this little chat about zinnias, and they have loads and loads of zinnia pictures there that'll just have your mouth watering if you like zinnias.

Farmer Fred

And I love  to bring them in as cut flowers. How do you cut zinnias for cut flowers?

Debbie Flower

Okay, well, first of all, it depends how you treat the plant. If you pinch them when they're young, and like I'm talking about maybe have four nodes and you take two off or take one off, and you'll get a very branched plant, and you're probably going to have shorter stems. If you're growing them for a large bouquet, you want tall stems, so you don't pinch them so much. So it depends. But in either case, the flower is going to occur on the top, and it has kind of its own stem, sticks right out of the top of the plant. And you want to go down a few nodes. Nodes are where the leaves are attached. And you'll be able to see in the axil, which is where the leaf is attached to the stem, in some axils, there will be extra tissue. That's about all it looks like at that point. That is where the next flower is going to occur. And so, the things you want to consider are, how long do you want your stems for your bouquet? And how many more flowers do you want to arise from that stem? Because as you look down the stem, you'll see that extra tissue in a few places. And so you could cut with a very long stem and leave just one side, one axil with extra tissue, and that will become the next flowering stalk. Or you can cut it with a shorter stem and have several places where you're going to have more flower stalks come out.

Farmer Fred

And we should point out for those of you inclined to know about  motor vehicles, axil, in this case, is spelled A-X-I-L.  as opposed to L-E. Or Axl Rose, for that matter.

Debbie Flower

Right. A good one that a friend of mine was, for a while, she and I went to horticulture graduate school together, and she was growing flower seedlings that she sold to somebody who had a business of cut flowers. And the cultivar that person liked was Benary's Giant.

Farmer Fred

Yeah, that's also part of Johnny's lineup, too. Yes. And that's really the best way to choose your zinnias is go to a site that's selling zinnias that has pictures of the zinnia so you can get a better idea of what the flower looks like. And you can really come up with some good combinations there.

Farmer Fred

I've always just cut mine down to where that branch with the flower meets a larger branch. You would call that thinning.

Debbie Flower

So that tissue I'm talking about, the axil, has already started to grow and that would be the larger branch so you're keeping all of the buds. I cut some the other day and I wanted longer stems so I took a few of those, that had the extra tissue where another branch would come out.

Farmer Fred

And then cut off those side branches?

Debbie Flower

Yes. I take off the leaves that are going to be under the water and the side branches, and I use a floral preservative in the water.

Farmer Fred

Which is equivalent to regular 7-Up?

Debbie Flower

I don't know.

Farmer Fred

What's in it?

Debbie Flower

I don't know. I just know it works because they used it at school.

Farmer Fred

I seem to do well with just hot water.

Debbie Flower

Hot water.

Farmer Fred

And they do last. It says here that zinnias can last in a vase for five to seven days. I'd say that's about right. I'm closer to a week in changing these out. So, yeah, it's a nice, long-lasting cut flower. Zinnias, they come in a variety of sizes, much like marigolds, where there are petite ones and then there are the giants.

Debbie Flower

Right. One of the first zinnias I ever grew was Cut-And-Come-again, and it was recommended by somebody I worked for more than 40 years ago at an ag experiment station. And it was known at that time for producing lots of flowers. The more you cut off, the more flowers you got. That was the story anyway.

Farmer Fred

So,  Johnny's has a mix of a cut flower, a zinnia cut flower mix. Mm-hmm. What is in their mix?

Debbie Flower

As in different seeds are all in one packet?

Farmer Fred

Yeah, as what is in, which varieties are included in that.

Debbie Flower

(If your making an arrangement with zinnias, a good addition is  Eriogonum fasciculatum that you were talking about, that attracts so many pollinators. It makes great filler because it has that sort of a spreading bunch of heads.

Farmer Fred

I will keep that in mind. I have plenty of that. So among the varieties that Johnny's recommends, if you want a good cut flower zinnia garden, would include Benary's Giant Mix, Queenie Red Lime, Queenie Lime with Blush, and Queenie Lime Orange. But those are Johnny's recommendations. I'm sure you can find a lot more. Like Zowie Yellow Flame. I got nothing else to say about zinnias other than they're pretty. Zinnias, they're a summertime treat. Add some to your house today. Thank you very much. Debbie, thank you very much.

Debbie Flower

You're welcome, Fred.

BEYOND THE GARDEN BASICS NEWSLETTER

Farmer Fred

In the next edition of the Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter, we pick up where we left off last week, with more advice about pruning fruit trees. And one overlooked, but necessary maintenance for fruit trees, especially citrus with low hanging branches, is skirt pruning. Why is skirt pruning that important, and how do you do it?

It will be in the Tuesday, August 13, 2024 edition of the “Beyond the Garden Basics” newsletter, which is on Substack. If you’re not a free subscriber yet, go to garden basics dot substack dot com and sign up. Also, you’ll find a link to the newsletter in today’s Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast show notes. Thanks for listening, and reading!

Farmer Fred

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred comes out every Friday and it's brought to you by Smart Pots and Dave Wilson Nursery. Garden Basics is available wherever podcasts are handed out. For more information about the podcast, as well as an accurate transcript of the podcast, visit our website, gardenbasics.net . And there you can find out about our newsletter, “Beyond the Garden Basics”. And thank you so much for listening and your support.