351 Honey, I Shrunk the Fruit Trees!

Show Transcript

351 Fruit Trees TRANSCRIPT

Farmer Fred  0:00  

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Welcome to the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast. If you're just a beginning gardener or you want good gardening information, you've come to the right spot.

Farmer Fred

If you have fruit trees, you just might be doing some harvesting of some delicious, tasty peaches, plums, nectarines, pluots right now with a lot more in the coming months. Wouldn’t it be great if you didn’t have to be standing on a shaky ladder trying to reach those last perfect pieces of fruit? Today, University of California Cooperative Extension Communications Specialist and Certified Consulting arborist, Kevin Marini, says get back on the ground! We’ve got tips to get a tree full of fruit all within easy reach without risking life and limb. Marini calls it, “Honey, I shrunk the fruit trees!” He’ll show us how.

We’re podcasting from Barking Dog Studios here in the beautiful Abutilon Jungle in Suburban Purgatory. It’s the Garden Basics with Farmer Fred podcast, brought to you today by Smart Pots, Dave Wilson Nursery, and Heirloom Roses. Let’s go!

HONEY I SHRUNK THE FRUIT TREES Pt. 1

Farmer Fred

Even though it was a nice cool morning, and I wanted to do a bike ride, every time I walked in the backyard lately, I was looking at my Fuyu persimmon tree. And it finally came time. I must thin out the fruit. it is one of the hardest jobs for any gardener who's growing fruit trees to thin the fruit, to remove crowded fruit, to allow the tree to breathe, to keep branches from breaking. Well, the Fuyu persimmons had finally gotten to a size where they were almost touching each other. So I knew that it was time to get out there and maybe prune them out to the point where there was about six inches between each piece of fruit or so. I know that's a very hard thing to do. But it's a very necessary thing to do if you want big pieces of juicy fruit at the end of the harvest season. 

And you don't want any broken branches. And we've all learned that the hard way. 

So I spent my morning thinning out the fruit on my Fuyu persimmon tree. And for the first time in many, many years that I've been growing persimmon trees, I did it all from the ground. I did not have to stand on a step stool, I did not have to stand on a ladder. 

Because last year I finally got it through my thick skull. Maybe we had to bring the height of this Fuyu persimmon down to the point where all the fruit would be within easy reach. And sure enough, it was this year. 

Now maybe I didn't get as much this year as I did last year, but I've got plenty. I bet there's at least 100-150 pieces of Fuyu persimmon fruit still on that tree. So I'm a happy camper. I'm glad I did that. I'm glad I pruned that fruit tree down to where I can stand on the ground and not risk life and limb on a step stool or on a ladder, especially on mulch. 

Another guy I know who knows the importance of thinning fruit and maintaining fruit tree height is Kevin Marini. He is a Community Education Specialist with UC Cooperative Extension. He is a certified arborist. And for about 20 years, he headed up the Master Gardener programs in two counties here in California, Placer and Nevada counties. Folks, those are some weird-shaped counties, especially Placer County. Because in Placer County, where it starts in the West, you're going from former rice fields near sea level all the way up to Lake Tahoe at 5000-6000 feet. So there's a lot of different gardening going on. 

And Kevin trained master gardeners to be able to offer gardening advice at near sea level all the way up to the thin air country. Now as a certified arborist, he's working with a lot of people on controlling the height of their fruit trees. He likes to call his presentation to garden groups, “Honey, I Shrunk the fruit trees”. And I think that's just great. 

And finally, Kevin, finally, it's catching on, this whole idea of backyard orchard culture, keeping the height of fruit trees at a manageable height, perhaps six or seven feet tall. And the beauty of that is if you keep them at that height, you can have a lot more fruit trees in your backyard. 

Kevin Marini  4:24  

Absolutely. Hey, let me tell you the one thing that I have experienced since I've been working with homeowners in their fruit trees. It is that they rarely get fruit. They want fruit. And where is the fruit? It's at the very top of the canopy of these 25 to 30 foot tall fruit trees. So when I hear that you have gone out there and not only thinned your fruit which is very hard to do, but also over time have brought that fruit tree down so you can just stand on the ground and do everything you need to do, that warms my heart. 

Farmer Fred  4:57  

It makes me feel better too. But doing that, though, as we've been taught for years and years, is this whole idea of backyard orchard culture, and having manageable trees, I think got its start, its impetus, back in the 1990s, from Dave Wilson Nursery and people like Ed Laivo and Tom Spellman, and it's taking hold. But the question always still appears, “I have a 15 or a 20 foot tall tree, how do I take it down to six or seven feet tall?” And what we've been telling people over the years is, well, it's a slow process. 

Kevin Marini  5:33  

It is a slow process. And I have a great story to relate on this. So a lot of the Master Gardener programs have demonstration gardens, where they do workshops, and things like that, and demonstrate all these best practices they teach about. And so up here in Grass Valley in Nevada County, as part of the Nevada County Master Gardener program, there is a big demo garden, and they have a beautiful orchard, that orchard was planted 35 years ago, potentially even longer than that. And it was planted with standard fruit trees. And so of course, when you have standard fruit trees, you have gigantic trees. And these trees grew fast and big and quickly got out of hand for these master gardeners to tend to, to manage. 

And so they kind of hit a point where they said, “We're either going to take out all these trees and replant them, or we're going to get some help to bring them down to size”. And so we asked for some help. And that help was in the form of a Sacramento farm advisor who has since passed, named Chuck Ingels. I know who you know who Chuck is. And so Chuck was very gracious and came out to our demo garden, and kind of put together a three to five year plan. It is a slow process. But basically, we did it over three to five years and  by year five, the trees were significantly lower to where we did not even have to get ladders out. If you think of five years being fast or slow, and that's a little subjective, but it's faster than you may think. 

And the key, of course, that Chuck elucidated at that time, was not stressing the tree out by doing an enormous amount of removal of limbs and stuff all at once. But to do it staggered over time. Big cuts on trees are not good things, right. They're large wounds that take a long time to heal. And so you want to minimize those large pruning cuts as much as possible. So by staggering it over a number of years, you don't do it all at once and risk complete death of the tree. And so I encourage anyone, if they're in Nevada County and Grass Valley, to check out our orchard at the demonstration garden and see the enormous trunks on these trees. But yet the trees are almost completely flat on top and not higher than 12 to 14 feet. 

Farmer Fred  7:57  

One thing I would like to point out for people who do have regular sized fruit trees that might be 15 or 20 feet tall: Don't use your household stepladder, invest in an orchard ladder. 

Kevin Marini  8:09  

I absolutely cannot emphasize that enough. From experience. To be honest, I feel a little embarrassed even saying it but I definitely have tried to use a frame ladder. And I live in the foothills on a slope on rocky gopher infested land, mounds everywhere. And so yeah, definitely go with the orchard ladder. And it's unbelievable how easy it is to navigate. A lot of people think, “oh, gosh, what's up with that  one little arm that swings out, it doesn't seem safe”. It's actually incredibly stable.

Farmer Fred  8:43  

Yeah, it's like a tripod with that one long metal arm and then two regular feet. And yet it's incredibly stable.

Kevin Marini  8:50  

Yeah, it's works. It works great. And even in like what you were talking about in mulched areas, that's really where you got to be careful about using ladders and where we put a bunch of mulch down. It's so prone to just kind of sinking in. Orchard ladders really perform good in those circumstances. 

Farmer Fred  9:09  

Well, by the time you get your tree down to six or seven feet, you can sell that orchard ladder for a great profit. So think about that, as you're only maybe taking off perhaps 1/3 of the total length of a branch in any one season.

Kevin Marini  9:22  

Yeah, Ideally, one thing that I have absolutely come around to is that there's really two times to prune for all fruit trees. And maybe not citrus, that's a little bit of a different animal. But when we're talking about most stone and pome fruit trees that people have in their backyards, it really needs to be a combination of dormant pruning and Summer pruning. And I can't emphasize that enough. And it’s not “or both” It’s both. What I have learned over all these 25 years teaching about fruit trees and tending to fruit trees is that both dormant and Summer pruning pruning are necessary  to keep the trees at the height you want. It's really difficult to do just one or the other and have those trees remain small and not have so much growth to deal with. That  takes so much time to deal with. So I'm all about both dormant and Summer pruning in conjunction to keep trees small. 

Farmer Fred  10:20  

And Summer pruning is usually best accomplished right after harvest. And dormant pruning is after the last leaf has fallen, so you can get a good idea of the structure. And you can spot those rubbing branches, crossing branches, or branches that are headed to the interior and blocking ventilation. And cutting those out can help your tree avoid a lot of diseases, as well. 

Kevin Marini  10:42  

Oh, yeah, one thing that's nice about fruit tree pruning is there's a real kind of prescription. Step one, step two, step three, step four. And if you follow that, and even if you don't know a lot about pruning, if you just, like you mentioned, take out the branches that are obviously going towards the center of the tree or that have broken or that are dead, dying, or diseased. There's a few first steps that anyone can go out there and do. And so that is really empowering for a lot of folks that, hey, I know that I can at least keep my tree looking decent by doing the steps. 

Of course, then you get into more of the art side of fruit tree pruning, where you're shaping and you're making some decisions about what type of cuts to make and things like that. It can be more complex. It is more complex. But like you say, there's some basics that everyone can get out there and do.

Farmer Fred  11:34  

When it comes to thinning cuts or heading cuts: What is the primary cut you like to do when bringing a tree down in size?

Kevin Marini  11:44  

So this is a real interesting thing to talk about. Because I always use the language in the arborist world to explain pruning cuts. There is different language in the fruit tree world. So in the fruit tree world, a heading cut is used to describe reducing a branch, usually a one year old branch or older, and cutting it down to a bud or a branch. Okay, in the arborist world, a heading cut is kind of a hacking cut, it's just made anywhere. And a good example of that would be say shearing or hedging, where you're just making a bunch of heading cuts and they usually fall not necessarily to a bud or a branch. But they could even occur between a node. And the response growth from a heading cut is usually a whorl of growth. So when you make a heading cut, and again, I'm referring to more of the heading cut defined in the arborist world. It's not necessarily intentional to where you're making that cut. So it creates this world of growth that becomes a problem for trees. You will have to go back and fix all that regrowth. The cut that's used a lot for fruit trees, using the arborist language, is a reduction cut. And the reduction cut is what it sounds like. It's reducing the length of a branch, that should always go back to a bud or back to a branch. so that the energy goes into that bud, goes into the branch, and does not result in the trees respond being a whorl of growth. Does that make sense?

Farmer Fred  13:28  

It makes perfect sense. People may get very confused if they're traveling in their car in the countryside. And maybe they're going by a cherry orchard. And all of a sudden, they're passing workers and the workers have this big, huge machine that's going along the top of the cherry trees that are basically horizontal saws, just shearing off the tops of the cherry trees. And they say that they can't possibly be doing a cut at a branch junction or at a bud. They're just doing it willy nilly.

Kevin Marini  13:56  

Exactly. Yeah,  and that is pretty amazing to watch, isn't it? And so in that case, you know, they're doing it at a time of year where it's unlikely to initiate a bunch of regrowth. So timing is important. But at the same time, you're absolutely right. There's no intention of where each branch is getting cut. It's just along the top. Now, can homeowners do that? Well, sure. But it may result in some regrowth that you don't want. So I always talk to homeowners about always pruning back to a bud or a branch just as a good practice, like a best practice to always have. That way you avoid the potential problems of a heading cut and that all that regrowth. 

Farmer Fred  14:45  

Yeah, unfortunately for homeowners, cutting back on a tree, it's usually based on how far can the saw reach. And that's where they make the cut. When in reality, if they just maybe don't stretch as far and come back down to a crossing branch or  a bud and make the cut there, they'd have a lot fewer problems in future years. 

We see that a lot in ornamental trees in the front yards of people who have hacked back at  ornamental trees, especially fruitless mulberry trees. Where  they've hacked back at one branch, two new branches eventually come out. They hack back at those two branches, four branches come out.

Kevin Marini  15:19  

Isn't that the truth. And this happens with not just fruit trees, but it happens with young ornamental trees that people plant and a branch will end up growing over their driveway a little bit, and they'll just go, “oh, I don't want that there.” And they will just cut it wherever, just so it's not going over the driveway. So you're right. It happens with all trees. And it's one of the things that, gosh, it's so super important not to do that, because you can really create some bad structure, some bad branch attachments, by going that route. 

Farmer Fred  15:51  

And by bad, I think you mean being weakly attached, because those branches could grow out. And if you see some of these very tight crotches that they form,  they're then more susceptible to breaking. And it could be you or your car, that's becomes a victim. 

Kevin Marini  16:07  

Absolutely. And with fruit trees, of course, you have ideally, all of that fruit on the branch that's creating a load, creating weight. And, man, when you have those narrow crotch angles - I love the language we're using - those narrow crotch angles in the trees, they can just rip out very, very easily. A lot of the people that I work with in their backyard orchards are really surprised that the higher the angle,  approaching 90 degrees, the stronger that attachment is. They tend to think that those 45 degree angles are very strong, because when they're young, there's no obvious reason why they're not. But as they get older, it becomes very obvious, especially for an arborist because you see what's called occluded bark. That’s the fact that there's not really much wood there in between the crotch there. That's one thing that's really important. You don't want narrow angles between your branches. You want them approaching 90 degrees.

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HONEY, I SHRUNK THE FRUIT TREES, Pt. 2

Farmer Fred

Let's get back to our conversation with Kevin Marini of the University of California Cooperative Extension. He's a communications specialist, and he's a certified and consulting arborist and we're talking fruit trees, including what you need to do when you plant a fruit tree. Even if you don't want to do it, you really need to do this:

Farmer Fred

You know, there's always exceptions to rules. And then one of those exceptions is another one that can draw gasps of horror from a crowd gathered to see a new fruit tree being planted. And that's when the demonstrator basically takes that stick and cuts it in half. Yeah, and they don't realize the benefits of cutting a newly planted fruit tree, cutting it really off at the knees because you're gonna form branches that are lower to the ground and have fruit that is witheasy reach. 

Kevin Marini  20:03  

Yeah, and I have to admit that I'm one of those people that does that at my workshops. It does, it kind of always elicit a big gasp like you just did that right? And you said the right term. So  that's heading back, right. And so in that case, you're not heading back, you're not pruning down that stick to a branch or button necessarily, you're just cutting it off at the knees. And what that does is it spurs a bunch of buds to pop and grow, which gives you all these great options for new scaffold branches, your main branches, that are coming off the stem. It is the number one strategy for keeping the new tree small. It is cutting it at the knees at planting. So many folks want the biggest bare root fruit tree they can find. And they would never consider cutting that down at the knees after finding the biggest one, at let’s say a seven foot tall apple: “oh, gosh, we want that one!” Well, here I come along and say, cut it all the way down here. 

But that is the number one strategy besides root stock selection. So most fruit trees are grafted, and they're grafted on these root stocks that can help control height and spread. And so there are genetic dwarf rootstocks. And there are semi dwarf root stocks that help control height. So I guess you could make the argument that that's the first step is making sure you're getting one of those dwarf fruit stocks to keep the tree small. But the next step would be cutting it at the knees. I'm with you on that. 

Farmer Fred  21:43  

If you are in the market for new bare root fruit trees come winter, if you deal with a reputable local nursery, they're going to be choosing the fruit trees with the rootstocks that's probably better for your area. Because it may be more likely to succeed in wet soils or clay soils or sandy soils, whatever the case may be. Let them make that choice for you. Because root stock labels can be very confusing. 

Kevin Marini  22:11  

Oh, yeah. And so you know, there are there are a number of local nurseries that sell local fruit trees. So there's one in Placer County, for example, they grow them there. They harvest and they graft them, they sell them, like you say, with a match that's good for the area. And then there's nurseries that are purchasing from large producers. So everyone knows Dave Wilson fruit trees are great fruit trees, but  these local nurseries will select their stock of  Dave Wilson fruit trees from the perspective of what works best for this area, as far as root stock. So, yeah, absolutely. And I'm amazed how many people that you know are really kind of obsessed with fruit trees, they they're all  getting into grafting on their own. Grafting now has become pretty popular, at least in the fruit tree world. So people now, I'm not surprised to hear, when someone says, “oh, I picked out this root stock and I grafted my own scions to it”. You know, that's not so rare to hear anymore.

Farmer Fred  23:15  

That's right. And soon they learn the definition of the word precociousness. Where one variety out of four on a tree tries to take over!

Kevin Marini  23:25  

Yeah, the multigraft trees are not fun to prune, that's for sure. You have to, at a client's house, it's like you have to explain why you're hammering this one variety, while leaving the other ones pretty much as is, right? It’s really, really difficult in those multi-varietal trees, and just within one type, but having multiple varieties. Either way, it's tough. It's tough to manage those trees appropriately for a really solid production from all of the grafts.

Farmer Fred  23:57  

And that is something to consider if you do have a multi budded fruit tree in your yard that has gotten out of control and you want to bring it back down to size, you better mark the branches of each variety so you don't accidentally cut one completely off.

Kevin Marini  24:11  

So really, I know that happens because I've seen it. I've gone out to places where the tags are still there, but are just hanging on barely enough.

Farmer Fred  24:21  

Well, that's why I've always been a big proponent of not only having that tag out at the tree, but also write it down inside. Keep a garden journal and write down what you planted, when you planted, where you planted. So when the raccoons come along, and besides taking your fruit, they take the plastic sign away, you know exactly what tree it is.

Kevin Marini  24:43  

And those things, they degrade over time too. I've had a few of those tags fall off and without recording it in a journal like you're talking about. Yeah,  I run in and make a note  to remember it. Absolutely, they don't last forever.

Farmer Fred  24:58  

Well that was a nice scenic bypass!

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HONEY, I SHRUNK THE FRUIT TREES! Pt. 3

Farmer Fred

We're reducing the size of your fruit trees. We are chatting with Kevin Marini of the University of California Cooperative Extension. He's a communication specialist. He's also a consulting and certified arborist. And we're talking about the specific cuts that you should be making on your fruit trees. 

Farmer Fred

Getting back to reduction of fruit trees, let's talk about the one type of cut we didn't talk about. And that's a thinning cut. And I think that would be most valuable when you're trying to clear out the interior of a tree to improve air circulation.

Kevin Marini  27:21  

Yes, yes. So thinning cuts refer to cuts that remove a branch at its origin. And so what we've talked about so far are heading cuts or reduction cuts, they are bringing the length of a branch back to somewhere else  on that branch where new growth is going to occur. Thinning cuts remove the branch all the way at its origin. So you're right, all those branches that are growing towards the center are generally going to be thinning cuts that are used. You're gonna use thinning cuts to remove them completely, you may get some regrowth in there from doing a bunch of thinning cuts. But that's just because you just exposed new buds to new light. That's the other important thing about those thinning cuts. They not only help maintain the structure of the fruit tree. But it also allows light to penetrate that fruit tree so that you keep getting fruit production within the tree on lower areas of the branches. A lot of times it gets so thick in the middle of those fruit trees that the only fruit that ever gets formed is on the outside. And Fred, I'm sure you know, when you have fruit on the outside of the canopy, you're lucky if you're going to get it first. Birds and others, there's lots of lots of competition for that fruit on the outside of the canopy.

Farmer Fred  28:39  

That was one of my decisions in thinning out the fruit on the Fuyu persimmon tree today. Okay, you got two pieces of fruit growing next to each other, which one gets removed? Well, obviously, the smaller one would would lose, and I'd keep the bigger one unless the bigger one was sunburned. And then I would remove that one. 

Kevin Marini  29:01  

Yeah, with this heat. There's a lot of sunburn on fruit and on bark as well. So you know when I go out and do Summer pruning, where I'm removing a lot of canopy and a lot of that shade all the sudden, not only is the fruit that can be exposed if there's still fruit on the tree, but the bark suddenly gets exposed to intense sunlight which can cause sunburn, which oh my gosh, that leads to so much disease as well as bacterial cankers and all these things that really can be a death knell for these trees.

Farmer Fred  29:35  

Yeah, that brings up a very good point too, about applying “salves” to the wound, you might say, but one is good. One is not good. There are people out there who after they make a cut of a branch, will try to apply sealant to that cut. Go ahead and talk about that. 

Kevin Marini  29:52  

Yeah, that's interesting because it used to be in the arborist world going way back,  a long time ago,  30 years ago, that was something that was recommended. So there's still literature that talks about making a cut and then sealing it with pruning sealer. Now we know as the science has evolved, that that is definitely not the right thing to do. We know now that if you make an appropriate pruning cut, where you're maintaining that little bark collar that has specialized cells that are meant to seal that wound, the trees do it all on their own. And by sealing it, you actually inhibit that process, and potentially seal in bacteria or fungi that can then cause disease or decay. So we know now that sealant, and especially of pruning cuts, it's just not needed at all. And it can be detrimental. That one way we do paint wounds on fruit trees  we do what is referred to as white-washing fruit trees, the white paint that people see all over fruit trees. iI looks kind of funny, but it has a very specific and beneficial purpose. And that is to kind of  a sunscreen, and help protect the bare wood from getting sunburn or young bark from getting sunburned and splitting.

 And so there are circumstances where you do pruning cuts and you paint them with this white washing material, the difference between the white washing material and the pruning sealant is one breathes, and one doesn't. So the sealant seals in and doesn't breathe. Whereas the whitewash has pores that still allow it to breathe, and heal over naturally. The one thing I just learned over the last couple years is that now they have these white washing products at nurseries in all different colors. So now you don't have to have a white fruit tree anymore. You can actually paint it brown because they actually sell brown white washing paint. Yes, you can have a regular looking fruit tree. Now you don't have to have it all white everywhere.

Farmer Fred  32:05  

Well, that brings up a fact - and a lot of Master Gardeners will promote this - is make your own whitewash with a 50% mix of water and 50% interior white latex paint as opposed to exterior white latex paint. Is that still recommended? 

Kevin Marini  32:22  

Yeah, for sure. So people can do the DIY thing.  they just have a gallon of  interior latex again, for  that breathability that you need. Yeah, 50-50 with water works totally fine. But also now they sell a product similar to that at the nurseries as well. So if you didn't want to mix up yourself, you can just purchase it. 

Farmer Fred  32:44  

If you're pruning back your fruit tree and taking off some branches, well, there's going to be areas of that tree that are now exposed to sun that weren't exposed before. And they would be very susceptible to sunburn.

Kevin Marini  32:56  

Especially if they're lateral branch surfaces, right. So if a branch is going horizontal, relatively horizontal on a fruit tree, and it's shaded and then you remove  that leaf material that is shading it, and suddenly there is direct sunlight on that lateral surface of that branch, it will burn fast. And so you're right. After summer pruning, a lot of time it's worthwhile to paint some of those surfaces that suddenly are exposed to that direct sunlight, it will go a long way in helping that tree live a long life because once the tree gets sunburned, it's an open wound. And so then all of a sudden you get these bacterial and fungal diseases that can get in there. And once you have that, we don't have a lot of homeowner products on the market that help us solve those problems.

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Farmer Fred  33:51  

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HONEY, I SHRUNK THE FRUIT TREES Pt. 4

Farmer Fred

Let's get back to our conversation with  Cooperative Extension communication specialist and arborist Kevin Marini, who has steps to take to keep your fruit trees in tip top shape. 

Farmer Fred

Oh, my there's a crowd gathering outside my window here. What are they saying? What are they mouthing? They're saying, “what are the steps? What are the steps? What are the steps?” Oh, hey, Kevin, you mentioned there are some steps, like four or five steps, when it comes to reducing the height of a fruit tree?

Kevin Marini  35:28  

Yeah, well, let's start with  one that maybe doesn't reduce the height, but it's the easiest step. And everyone could do this any time of year. And they don't even have to be very careful about where they make the cut. And that is the suckers. Because fruit trees are grafted on to a root stock, you get suckers that grow up from the ground from the root stock. Believe it or not, this can be a big problem. Because if you let those suckers continue to grow, they can eventually convince you that they're part of your fruit tree until you actually see this weird looking fruit on them. And you realize, Wait, what's that all about? Prune out those suckers. Step number one, go out to your fruit tree anytime during the year. If they're shooting from the ground, obviously, from the root stock below the graft union, cut them out, do not let them take over your tree. So that's easy. Step number one.

Farmer Fred  36:21  

Yeah,  let's define that. First. For people who are trying to find the bud union, if a tree was planted properly, that's going to be like a little lump or a little bump that should be just a few inches above the surface of the soil. And so anything that is emanating from below that point, can be removed completely and safely.

Kevin Marini  36:39  

Yes, I'm actually glad you drilled down on that a little bit, because one thing that I have encountered quite a bit is that people bury the graft union. So they buy their fruit tree in a container. And the graft union is above the soil line when they bring it home. But when they pop it out of the container and put it into the ground, many times they'd bury it too deep. And if that graft union is subsurface, if it's underneath the ground, it can absolutely quickly rot. And then you can lose your fruit tree in a nice stiff wind down the road. That's super important, The graft has to be above ground. It has to be daylighted. You really have to take care of that, right? Ideally, you don't want it facing west, where the afternoon sun is hammering it, you kind of want it facing the other way. It's not a deal breaker, if you didn't do that. Don't worry, folks. But having that graft union up above ground and then controlling any sucker growth from below that coming from the ground, from the rootstock, or just beneath the graft on the stem, is important. 

Farmer Fred  37:44  

Yep, there are other suckers -  I don't know if this is unique to citrus or not - they're called water sprouts, that can just spring up almost anywhere in the tree. But the thing with them is they're growing straight up. And they're easy to spot and easy to remove.

Kevin Marini  37:59  

So that is I would say your step number two. So you start with your suckers down below, get rid of all those, get them out of the way. Some of them can be quite thorny, and vicious as well, especially on citrus. And so then you're looking for these other type of suckers called water sprouts. They generally occur as vigorous vertical shoots on lateral branches. So branches that are going out relatively in a horizontal fashion, they will have these sprouts that vertically shoot up to the sky. On certain plums and cherries, sometimes these water sprouts can be seven, eight feet in length. I mean, they can completely destroy this beautiful structure that you're trying to work on with this fruit tree. Identifying those water sprouts and getting them out of there is super important. You know, some people will use water sprouts to rejuvenate fruit trees. That would be getting really technical here. We're not going to go into that, but I just want to point out that they could have a use in certain circumstances. But overwhelmingly in our backyard orchard, you see a waterspout, it should be taken out. 

Farmer Fred  39:12  

It’s out of there. Yeah, you're right. That is a scenic bypass, but one I don't want to take right now either, because then we're gonna get into plant propagation.

Kevin Marini  39:20  

Yeah, yeah, that goes down a whole another little road there. Interesting. So let's talk about number three. Okay, so you've got your suckers, got your waterspouts right. So now you're going to start actually looking for some problem children. Okay, what are the problem children? Well, those shoots that are going into the middle of the tree that you spoke about earlier, are probably I call them problem children. By themselves. They're just little shoots the branches and you might not think anything of them. But for me, trying to maintain a certain structure to the fruit tree, those can really muck it up very quickly. Really  become cumbersome to deal with, if you really let them grow in there, you really have to get in there and find their origin and cut them out and yank them out. And it can be a little troubling. So I say, stay on top of this, those branches that are crossing, rubbing, and then going from branches into the middle of the fruit tree, get those out of there. They are pretty easy to identify and remove. Now, of course, there's also I mentioned the crossing, rubbing, those aren't necessarily only branches that are going towards the middle of the fruit tree, those are branches that are just growing too close together. And if they're touching already, with a fruit load, it's even going to be worse. And they can create wounds, which then of course lead to potential disease. So you don't want that. 

And then of course, the next step is those dead, dying, diseased branches. If you know a branch is dead, cut it out of there, don't let it be a host for  other bacteria or fungi that could reinfect the live tissue somewhere on the planet from the tree. If it's dying, if you see something dying back, sometimes the best thing  to do is to prune that puppy out quickly, potentially stopping the infection in its tracks. Right? Those what I don't know how many of those were maybe four or five quick tips, if everyone just did those, the fruit trees would be in good shape. For the most part, you still would probably have to do what we talked about in the beginning, which is reduction cuts, and a mix of dormant and summer pruning to keep that height down. But those easy steps - like walk out to the tree - and out go suckers, water sprouts, branches going towards the center, dead, dying, diseased, crossing, rubbing. Five. So there it is, you do those five things, you are doing way more than most people do.

Farmer Fred  41:50  

Removing those branches too, they should be removed completely. Those would be thinning cuts where you're cutting those off at wherever they're emanating from.

Kevin Marini  41:57  

Exactly, yeah. Because most of them, you know, there could be an argument in certain circumstances for diseased branches that you don't take out all the way at their origin, for example, say Fireblight, right. So if you have Fireblight, in an apple or a pear, you may not remove the entire branch, you may cut it beyond the damage to another branch or a bud. So there are certain circumstances where maybe you wouldn't do a thinning cut. But I would say the majority of what we just talked about are thinning cuts. 

Farmer Fred  42:30  

Well, since he just steered the car onto this scenic bypass, let's talk a little bit about Fireblight. If people notice a scorched look to their apple tree, for example, or pear tree, and they go, oh my goodness, what's going on here, it could be Fireblight. And it used to be that what you would do is you would notice where it begins to start the discoloration and then go down another 12 inches or so and make your cut  into healthy wood there in order to prevent a reinfection. And then the real old school of thought was, and then after each cut, sterilize your cutting tools. And I don't think anybody does that anymore. Chuck Ingels, you brought him up earlier. And  he tried to spread Fireblight by making cuts just below  the wound, below the discoloration area and not disinfect the tools. And no matter how hard he tried, he could not reinfect the tree. 

Kevin Marini  43:27  

It's so funny you bring that up because I was gonna bring that up too. And I have, there's another plant pathologist in UC Extension. And she's since retired. But she said the same exact thing. And so it is true that it seems like it's much harder to spread via pruning shears than we originally thought. that is good news. Because having to disinfect between every cut is incredibly cumbersome. And I doubt that many people would even go about doing that, unless they had a very small tree and only had a few cuts to make. The Fireblight  was bad this year on pears and apples, mostly on pears and apples. I mean, of course there's ornamental plants that host the bacteria too. But for fruit trees, we're mostly talking about pears and apples and the thing that happens is it can be so destructive to your structure. So you  spent all this time building this beautiful structured fruit tree, and suddenly you get Fireblight damage and you have to make a pruning cut that is going to eliminate an entire side of your fruit tree right? And all of a sudden this beautiful balanced structure you have becomes kind of off kilter. And so a lot of people are hesitant to make those cuts. But you're right, it's really what is recommended. It is  the number one tool we have as home gardeners, is to prune out the Fireblight damage. And  even though it may be hard to spread the infection, I still like to go at least six inches beyond where I can see the infection. And into really nice, healthy tissue. So I still abide by that. But I don't worry about the disinfection of the shears between the cuts like you mentioned. 

Farmer Fred  45:08  

Yeah. And you can still take it back to a bud or a crossing branch as well, for sure. So, it is effective. I think the problem as far as disinfecting your tools, if people were using bleach, that's a quick end to your tool. That $90 pair of Corona shears that you have just might not last as long as you think, if you're dipping them constantly into bleach. So basically wipe them off. At the end, clean your tools when you're done working with them for the day. It's a good habit to get into if you have pruning tools, is at the end of the day, clean them. Oil them. sharpen them. 

Kevin Marini  45:42  

Yeah, I think people are always so interested in what I'm doing in the back of my truck. At first when I arrive at their house, I get all my tools and I'm sharpening them, what are you doing? I'm sharpening my tools so that  I'm going to make nice clean cuts on your trees. Oh, wow. They're always so happy to hear that. It's good. Yes. Yeah, exactly. But let me tell you, it goes a long way. When you're pruning fruit trees, it is important to have sharp tools, it makes the job so much more pleasant. Right? I actually was pruning some olive trees. There's a real bad disease affecting California olive trees. It's called Olive knot. And it's these galls that form on branches and it causes everything above those galls  to die. And so what's recommended is that during the summer, during the warm season, when the disease can't infect new pruning wounds, summer is when you get all that stuff out of there. That's when I realized the benefit of sharp tools. If you ever tried to prune out dead olive wood, wood that's dead,  it's rock hard, right? It is a lot more difficult to do than making pruning cuts in live tissue where it cuts just like butter. But trying to prune out dead stuff? You need really, really sharp tools. 

Farmer Fred  46:58  

Well, since you went on that scenic bypass, tell us about your sharp tools. What brands do you like? 

Kevin Marini  47:04  

you know, I have to say that I have Felcos.. You know, I've always had Felcos I don't know, who or where I got the idea that Felco was the pruning shear of all pruning shears, but I do really like how they fit my hand. I like how they sharpen up. I like how you can take them completely apart and buy new parts for them. I still have Felcos that I've I bought when I was in Italy in 2002. So I have pruning shears that I still use from 2002. I have to give Felco little nod there. But I've used Corona. I've used some of these other brands and they work great as well. I am a big fan of medium sized, lightweight loppers. So most people know what loppers are. And when pruning fruit trees, I love loppers, because you can look back from what you're cutting, and you can get a little bit more leverage for larger branches. I really prune a lot of fruit trees with loppers, and do kind of at the very end, more fine work with pruning shears.

Farmer Fred  48:16  

The old saw - if you'll forgive my pun there - for using pruning tools was,  if the branch is about the thickness of your little finger, you can use hand pruners. If it's the thickness of your thumb or less, you can use long handled loppers. If it's thicker than your thumb, you use a pruning saw. So what pruning saws do you like?

Kevin Marini  48:43  

I love small pruning saws. So I'm a big fan of the little Corona. I mean, I'm, I'm saying brand names here.you know, At  UC, we don’t talk brands very much. But I will say that there's not many small sized pruning saws that are durable and I really liked the little Corona one. It's only about eight inches, and I can put it in my back pocket. I can be up on a ladder if I need to be and just whip it out really fast. It's really really easy to get in between branches, which can be difficult with larger pruning saws. Obviously, if you have big branches, bigger pruning saws are going to make the cut go a lot faster than a little tiny pruning saw. But believe it or not, I use a small one. I like really light tools that I can manipulate in lots of situations. But again, I'm doing this, sometimes I'm pruning a lot of trees. I pruned an Orchard that had 55 apples,  so  sometimes  having those lightweight tools are more for my muscles and joints as well.

Farmer Fred  49:46  

We all are. That's understandable. Yes, sir. I think one thing we should talk about is when making the cut with a pruning saw on a branch that is bigger than your thumb. You do not want to remove it close to that branch collar, - as you say - in one fell swoop. Because chances are, once you cut through that from the top, about halfway through that branch, it is going to start to break, and then strip the bark further down below the branch collar and maybe down the trunk of the tree. And so a good rule of thumb, again, is the three cut method. 

Kevin Marini  50:22  

Yes, absolutely. And you know,  if the branch isn't too big, and  a little bit bigger than your thumb, it's not too big. And you're using your pruning saw, a lot of times, you can just kind of hold the branch with one hand and saw with the other and kind of catch the branch, if you will, when you make that last little cut, to sever it from the tree. I have to admit that I do that quite often with certain sized branches I can handle. But you're absolutely correct. Once you get into bigger branches, do that undercut. That undercut is so important to keep it from ripping back. And you know, people can go online, just look it up. It's literally,  1-2-3 cut, that they put that in, they can see a graphical representation of what that exactly looks like. But basically, what you're trying to avoid is what you said, that bark just ripping out from underneath the branch, which can happen very quickly, more quickly than you realize. So doing that little undercut is important for sure.

Farmer Fred  51:27  

Yeah, every picture tells a story, don't it? Yeah, that's important, too. And it is hard to visualize what we just said. So I'll have a link in today's show notes. I did a newsletter a while back in the Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter about the three cut method that shows you exactly how to do it. And it's very easy once you start doing it.

Kevin Marini  51:45  

Oh, sure. Sure. And also, if you could link to a picture of the bark branch collar.

Farmer Fred  51:53  

That’s part of it. 

Kevin Marini  51:54  

Yeah, that is so important. So many folks, you know, are still cutting branches off flush to the stem, and it's not their fault. They don't know any different. I could see why they think that makes sense, right? If you don't know about tree physiology, and you're thinking, hey, you don't want to leave any type of nub here, you want to take it back. But we know now  that flush cuts, which is what it used to be called, is not the way you want to do pruning cuts. And so, what I say is, “nubs not stubs”. We're not saying leave in a huge stub of a branch. What we're saying is you're leaving the nub of the branch bark collar which does protrude out from the stem of the tree a little bit. Seeing that in pictures, I think is really important for folks, because that's really, there's so many times where I go out and see a pruning cut that was done wrong and has led to decay that has tracked back into the tree and it's just slowly killing the tree.

Farmer Fred  52:56  

As our mutual acquaintance Steve Zien would describe it, you want to leave enough that you can almost hang your hat on.

Kevin Marini  53:04  

Yes, that's a good way to put it. Yeah. Yeah, I always say “nubs not stubs” because it rhymes and it seems that for people,  it sticks in their heads, but  also that visual of hanging the hat on that little nub that's going to stick in my head now.

Farmer Fred  53:19  

That's good. Well, we've learned a lot about breaking down the height of overgrown fruit trees today with Kevin Marini, Community Education Specialist with UC Cooperative Extension and certified arborist. He is going to be - if you're in Northern California - he is going to be speaking tomorrow, Saturday, August 3, at Harvest Day at the Fair Oaks Horticulture Center. He's going to be talking about nurturing soils and bagged mixes for better plants. He'll be speaking at 830. If you're not in Northern California, well, next time you come to California try to make it around the first weekend in August so you can come out and see the Fair Oaks Horticulture Center because it is a fabulous demonstration garden where you're going to find great tips for your own yard and that's the way it is designed. It's not a dilettante garden. It's a working garden, and you ought to see what they've done over the 25 years or so that they've had that center, the Fair Oaks Horticulture Center, in existence. So Kevin Marini, tomorrow morning, August 3 at the Fair Oaks Horticulture Center for Harvest Day, a free event, by the way. Kevin Marini, thanks so much for bringing down the height of our fruit trees today.

Kevin Marini  54:29  

No problem. Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.

BEYOND THE GARDEN BASICS NEWSLETTER

Farmer Fred  54:41  

We’re you a little confused by our conversation with Kevin Marini about fruit tree height reduction? Maybe you’re having trouble recalling his five steps for pruning for better basic fruit tree health. Or where that bud union should be located when planting a new fruit tree. Or you’re wondering about that tree branch collar and why it’s so important; or how to do that three cut method for large branches.

In the Tuesday, August 6, 2024 edition of the “Beyond the Garden Basics” newsletter, we take a deeper dive into those fruit tree planting and pruning tips, including another point of view about backyard fruit tree height from the author of a book on that subject. To find out more about what we talked about here in Episode 351, “Honey I shrunk the Fruit Trees”, check out the Tuesday, August 6 edition of the Beyond the Garden Basics newsletter, it’s on Substack. You’ll find a link to the newsletter in today’s show notes.

Farmer Fred

Garden Basics with Farmer Fred comes out every Friday. It's brought to you by Smart Pots, Dave Wilson nursery, and Heirloom Roses. Garden Basics. It's available wherever podcasts are handed out. For more information about the podcast as well as an accurate transcript, visit our website, gardenbasics.net . And there you can find out about our newsletter, “Beyond the Garden Basics.” And thank you so much for listening and your support.